A person may see themselves as X but yes, as you suggest, they then have to convince others that they are in fact X and that X is justifiable. — universeness
it’s difficult not to consider answers such as these without asking ‘as opposed to…?’ Especially when reading it as a woman. — Possibility
Aggression, for instance, is traditionally considered a masculine trait - yet young women these days, freed from learned expectations of passivity as ‘feminine’, are often (not always) more openly aggressive than their mothers and grandmothers were. They no longer need to appear ‘ladylike’. — Possibility
The ‘maleness’ described here appears to prioritise individual agency and attributable action - a sense of identity and ownership found in isolating one’s self from the world as the subject. Competitiveness and conflict over collaboration - my life, my decisions, my honour, my family, my desire, as opposed to others and their (dis)agreement, vulnerability, etc. — Possibility
to be recognised as the subject behind every event..but this ‘maleness’ seems more about consolidating identity through attributable action than intentionality. — Possibility
I responded empirically to the question of what men are. The data are remarkable really. There are a whole host of occupations that are nearly 100% male, particularly in the trades. — Hanover
We would have to 'interview' the women who know Mr Clark 'well,' — universeness
what you mean by "patriarchy"
— wonderer1
I mean what it's defined as in dictionaries, reference books etc. E.g. ''Patriarchy is a social system in which positions of dominance and privilege are primarily held by men.' — Baden
It seems to me that would be true only if men's lives are somehow better than women's. Is that true? — T Clark
Calling our society a patriarchy as that term is normally used includes an unstated assumption that it is a bad thing. It seems to me that would be true only if men's lives are somehow better than women's. — T Clark
The realities of class overrun our educated chatter about sex, gender, men (masculinity), and women (femininity). Educated, professional workers are just not in the same boat as blue-collar / gray collar workers. I've been both. The latter is definitely more pleasant than the latter.
Battling "Patriarchy" is a war against the distorted shadows on the wall of the academic cave. Success or failure will have no consequences. — BC
'a disproportionate control of national governments and multi-state/national corporations (re: resource investments, allocations, accumulations, subsidies, etc) by "wealthy" members of the male gender primarily for the benefit (i.e. maintaining "traditions" of hierarchical dominance) of "wealthy & professional" members of the male gender' — 180 Proof
In virtually every competitive environment, men dominate, whether it's board games, card games, e-sports, cooking, or whatever really. Why is that? Is it a global conspiracy against women? Or is it because men have a proclivity towards engaging more seriously with competitive activities, and have characteristics that produce success in comparison to women? When your benchmark for talking about patriarchy is equal outcomes in competitive environments, you've already completely misunderstood what you're dealing with.
It's just a question of equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. I think almost all social groups agree, that if a woman can pass the fitness tests, and displays sufficient competence, just as any man would have to, then she should be considered for a position. If she's the best choice, then she should get the position. Just don't be surprised if these conditions don't produce equal participation in armies by gender. — Judaka
I could not think of 4 less important areas! and in each of those area there are women representatives, every bit as good as the men involved, especially in cooking.board games, card games, e-sports, cooking, — Judaka
No one likes an asshole. — Hanover
Maybe under the modern label of libertarian socialism there is "total equality" ... — 180 Proof
Patriarchy:
a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line:
a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it: "the dominant ideology of patriarchy" — universeness
And how useful is it to label yourself? Who benefits exactly? — apokrisis
So labelling yourself is counterproductive in that it over-constrains your sense of self in a mechanical fashion. As a system, that makes you brittle. It is a shallow strength that breaks suddenly rather than a supple strength that adjusts. — apokrisis
I agree.But then on the other hand, at the level of humans as part of a social collective, encouraging self-labelling is useful. — apokrisis
People want/need to be understood by other people regardless of personal notions of what 'society' wants. Who are you talking about when you use the label 'society?'Society wants to fix people into predictable roles and attitudes so that they can play parts within larger political and economic scripts. — apokrisis
It is also unwise to over-complicate us. Many folks on TPF use their language skills to appear to be saying stuff that's deep and meaningful, when in reality, when you 'decode' the fancy terms they employ, they are not saying anything deeper or more meaningful, than the local yokel with an average education, who has lived for long enough to come to some conclusions about some issues.This is how it is. Society finds life simplest when we do answer to labels. But society functions best when our behaviour is intelligent and expresses a dynamical balance. Labels then become the dichotomous signifiers of the conventionalised limits of behaviour. We can dance within the space defined … or step back to critique the settings of social system that is seeking to over-simplify us. — apokrisis
You probably know that there is more to 'Patriarchy' than simple definitions. — Amity
Real Men Don't Eat Quiche is a best-selling tongue-in-cheek book satirizing stereotypes of masculinity by the American screenwriter and humorist Bruce Feirstein, published in 1982 (ISBN 0-671-44831-5).[1]
The title alludes to the gender associations of quiche as a "feminine" food in American culture, which causes men to avoid it [2] and has served as the basis of the title of multiple journal articles.[3][4][5] To gain free publicity the publisher sent copies of the book to radio personalities and newspaper columnists, and the witty "real men don't ..." definitions were widely quoted. Listeners and readers then bought the book for more of the definitions — Real Men Don't Eat Quiche - wiki
You also keep attempting to cite examples of where you claim men excel over women, when the truth is that women's contribution and women's achievements are often deliberately diluted or are just not mentioned. — universeness
I could not think of 4 less important areas! and in each of those area there are women representatives, every bit as good as the men involved, especially in cooking. — universeness
Even if you were given your claim that (men are better than women)... at competing — universeness
Do you consider education a competition? — universeness
are men better than women at cooperation in your opinion? Cooperation produces far better results than competition imo. — universeness
Do you think men have proven themselves more intelligent than women? — universeness
'Real Men Do Whatever The Fuck They Want' — Amity
This is all irrelevant. I was not arguing that 100% of men outcompeted all the women, or anything close to that. This is about the top 1% or 10% being male-dominated, not male-exclusive. — Judaka
Patriarchal 'pressure,' and notions of manly men masculine identity, is a strong factor towards why any man who identifies as a woman might consider killing themselves. The 'group think' mentality of such, results in a great deal of vitriol being directed against trans folks in very nasty ways. Every bit as bad as the vitriol thrown at homosexuals in the past.Reading your reply, it seems you've entirely taken me out of context. As if, I didn't bring up any of what I said for a particular point, I was just trying to explain why men are superior to women or some shit. The entire problem with this argument of patriarchy is that there's zero effort to look at alternative explanations. If there's an unequal gender outcome, assume sexism caused it, and if anyone objects, address them as sexist, amazing. Though, wasn't your position AGAINST the critique of the West as a patriarchy? — Judaka
I grew up in what most would call a conservative environment. To the point that upon expressing I wanted long hair as an ~10 year old kid (I had a male friend who had long hair and liked it) my parents responded "Do you want to be a girl?!" to dissuade me. Something so innocuous as a child thinking his friend was cool and wanting to be like that was interpreted as a bad thing that needed to be avoided. I don't know how Morman's congregate now -- but in my youth they had separate classes at church for men and women. Sex was the excuse, but gender was the rule. — Moliere
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