So -- androgenous man is the gender identity I've come to prefer, but I'm not settled on the wording. I'm surprised to find others don't feel like me -- but isn't that all part of the path of self-discovery? — Moliere
Would you not agree that a human name was not normally arbitrarily chosen? — universeness
So you want to shift the argument from the general syntactical point – the conventions of mathematical logic - to one of social pragmatics? — apokrisis
So the human use of naming as a semantic act is going to reflect the pragmatics of human discourse rather than the absolutism of mathematical logic. — apokrisis
And how useful is it to label yourself? Who benefits exactly? — apokrisis
So labelling yourself is counterproductive in that it over-constrains your sense of self in a mechanical fashion. — apokrisis
But then on the other hand, at the level of humans as part of a social collective, encouraging self-labelling is useful. — apokrisis
My own view is shaped by systems science. — apokrisis
No, my point is that human names reflect societal influences. Many children are named after that which influenced their parents. Some kids got called 'Neo' because of the Matrix films.But the question for you is do you want to argue that the names that humans give other humans, or even the names that humans give themselves, must come with the force of strong necessity? — apokrisis
To say that the arbitraryness relation can be instead merely somewhat weakened – for the obvious reason that humans have semantic grounds for wanting to signify hereditary connections, job occupations, religious conventions, boastful claims about their children's supposed qualities or social status, or whatever else – is quite something else, and is already covered by my semiotic approach. — apokrisis
One of my sister's children, a biological male, identifies as non-binary. I must admit I have a hard time understanding that. — T Clark
But I'm still *just* attached enough to my male-side that I prefer to say androgenous man. — Moliere
I have to ask, but you can of course decide not to answer, as you may feel that it's 'none of my business!' Do you have any feelings of 'disappointment,' towards this sexually non-binary person, that you are a blood relative of? Do you think that they are aware of your current status of having a hard time understanding their current sexual status? — universeness
Do you feel that it's important that you don't demonstrate any bias against this relation, in comparison with any other niece or nephew you have, purely on the basis of their non-binary sexual status? — universeness
Do you feel a 'current social pressure' to not demonstrate any such bias or do you feel you must reject any such current societal pressure and maintain/conserve the factors that contribute to your status of 'hard time understanding that.' — universeness
Johnny Cash wrote a song about a boy named 'Sue,' — universeness
My sister and I are not related by blood. Her mother married my father when I was about 30. The decision had very negative impacts on the family - my sister and her husband were devastated. It took them years to come to terms with what seemed like a complete rejection of their family. This was not a moral or religious reaction on their part, it was emotional, personal. I've tried to be supportive to both my sister and brother-in-law and their child. It's true though that it angers me that my sister has had to go through all that for a reason I can't understand — T Clark
Yeah, I pondered over the words to use for that question for a while, My choice of words were obviously not well received."...maintain/conserve the factors that contribute to your status of 'hard time understanding that." What the fuck does that mean? — T Clark
Do you feel a 'current social pressure' to not demonstrate any such bias or do you feel you must reject any such current societal pressure and maintain/conserve the factors that contribute to your status of 'hard time understanding that.' — universeness
I would now say, I was involved in, and was influenced by, a violent manifestation of masculinity and patriarchy. — universeness
What is masculine about senseless violence? — Tzeentch
You better believe they will! Unless they are educated and taught how to avoid the darker sides of unfettered masculinity and patriarchy. Mankind was initially taught 'jungle style,' we can outdo the savagery of any current animal species. Do you still think it's wise to defend the excesses of unfettered masculinity with such an ineffectual defence of it, as Misandry?Ironically, the view you profess fuels the problem. Apparently senseless violence is considered manly, and therefore naive, young men trying to be manly will be drawn towards it. — Tzeentch
You are protecting your tribe and all it stands for. — universeness
Do you feel a 'current social pressure' to not demonstrate any such bias or do you feel you must reject any such current societal pressure and maintain/conserve the factors that contribute to your status of 'hard time understanding that.'
— universeness — universeness
Why do you have a hard time understanding that? — universeness
What confuses me is not that some people are not attached to their gender identities, but that it is important enough to them that they must reject those identities publicly at significant social cost to themselves and others. — T Clark
What confuses me is not that some people are not attached to their gender identities, but that it is important enough to them that they must reject those identities publicly at significant social cost to themselves and others. — T Clark
Imagine for a moment, you had a powerful personal experience, that absolutely convinced you, that Allah exists and was the one true god. Would you need to tell your loved ones? Would you be compelled to declare your new faith publicly, regardless of the significant social cost to yourself and perhaps your family? — universeness
Is there any identity that you can imagineer, that could be important enough to you that you must reject your current identity, publicly at significant social cost to you and others? — universeness
Living up to a public image to be pleasing to others for no benefit other than the comfort of others who don't recognize your identity isn't exactly high on the priority list for most people. — Moliere
Either way, whether I choose to conform for others or not, the opinions of others aren't about me but rather about how I function in their world("Be a man!" as "Do as I say!"). Which, to me, just sounds like work. And no one's paying me to make them comfortable with my identity, yet, though if the offer were right then I might accept it ;) — Moliere
there are four genders in the theory, where +/+ is androgeny, +/- is masculinity, -/+ is femininity, and -/- is undifferentiated. — Moliere
What benefit is there in telling you what you want to hear, or to lie about themself? That's work. — Moliere
As I noted in a previous post, I don't identify myself as a man in opposition to anything. That would make me +/... I think people think that's impossible, as if the dialectic represents reality rather than human-manufactured mental process. — T Clark
No. Telling me what you're not is work. Telling me nothing is the low-effort path. I won't bring it up if you won't. — T Clark
"Negation" as in "does not express" rather than "is in opposition to" -- so if you do not express femininity, then "-" would be applicable in accord with the theory. — Moliere
This would make sense if gender were simply a set of sentences or beliefs, but it's kind of wrapped up in one's whole identity, their way of presenting themselves to others and interacting. So "telling" doesn't have to be with words -- it can be done with mannerisms, dress, tone, and even unconscious actions. And that's only looking at behavior.
Telling you what I'm not, in most conversations, is an explanation that you're not treating me as I am. It's work to tell you, but it's even more work to pretend I'm something I'm not. — Moliere
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.