As someone who works in the field of mental health, you may appreciate the fact that every major shift in approach to psychotherapy is directly linked to the outcome of these rarified debates. — Joshs
In other words, logical norms are legitimate, but the 'rhetoric' of power is overwhelming. I can't afford to not use a money-making war-winning algorithm, even if I don't understand it. In our complex economy, we are constantly forced to specialists on topics we don't have time to learn about ourselves. As apokrisis mentioned elsewhere, it costs energy to ask questions.
So maybe philosophers are a mostly ignored priesthood, who might as well be stampcollectors in the context of the way we live now. IMO, politicians are junkfood 'applied' philosophers who are nevertheless effective precisely through easily understood oversimplifications. — plaque flag
Yes, I do appreciate this and I understand something of the source material. We know our ideas can be tracked back to other ideas. What I am referring to however is that most of us don't have the inclination to 'look under the hood and tinker with the engine — Tom Storm
Each side stands both together with and apart from the other. There is not one without the other.
Ultimately, there is neither ‘this or that’ but ‘this and that’. The Whole is not reducible to One. The whole is indeterminate.
And yet we do separate this from that. Thinking and saying are dependent on making just such distinctions. — Fooloso4
Are the two vases the same, or different? What's "the" vase? — Banno
Yes, I think I see this and agree. As I said earlier, most of us probably recognize we are tied to a world of ideas and platforms built by our ancestors. But we take this as a given and move on. We don't have the disposition for exploration, nor the foundational knowledge to be of any use in unpicking those ideas and imagining alternatives. Except perhaps is a strictly transactional way through incremental improvements in politics and how we conduct our businesses. Or something like that. — Tom Storm
The private object is just the object of representationalism. — plaque flag
Well, that at least might be a different approach. How would it work? — Banno
For them, the private object is the given, the most undeniably real and present. Then the public world is a hypothetical construction from all of these streams of experience. 'The' vase with the red flower is a useful abstraction, perhaps a fiction, used to organize a plurality of red-flower-experiences. — plaque flag
For them, the private object is the given, the most undeniably real and present. Then the public world is a hypothetical construction from all of these streams of experience. 'The' vase with the red flower is a useful abstraction, perhaps a fiction, used to organize a plurality of red-flower-experiences. — plaque flag
A neat summation of a basic flaw that is rampant hereabouts. Do you see it in Joshs story? — Banno
wouldn't say it is a hypothetical construction; it is rather a logical entailment; — Janus
I tend to agree with Josh in spirit — plaque flag
The world exist through/for different individual nervous systems — plaque flag
What are you saying this tells us about language? — Tom Storm
Theaetetus:
We really do seem to have a vague vision of being as some third thing, when we say that motion and rest are.
Stranger:
Then being is not motion and rest in combination, but something else, different from them.
Theaetetus:
Apparently.
Stranger:
According to its own nature, then, being is neither at rest nor in motion.
Theaetetus:
You are about right.
Stranger:
What is there left, then, to which a man can still turn his mind who wishes to establish within himself any clear conception of being?
Theaetetus:
What indeed?
Stranger:
There is nothing left, I think, to which he can turn easily. (Sophist 250)
I don't see how to make this right. Things are generally not dependent on one's nervous system for their existence. — Banno
We don't actually experience a world; it is a synthetic inference from the impressions, sounds, feels and images that we experience. — Janus
It might be objected that the most primordial thing for the individual is being somato-sensorially affected, but prior to developing the sense of self that co-arises with the sense of the other and of world, there really is no individuality. — Janus
think animals also synthesize their Umwelts in the same kind of way, and in that sense, they have their own circumscribed worlds, so I don't see it as being wholly dependent on language, except in the reflexive phase. Without that ability to synthesize an Umwelt, language would not be possible in the first [place. — Janus
This is captured nicely in Kant's idea of the synthetic a priori; it is synthetic in that it is synthesized from experience and yet is transcendentally prior in that, once synthesized, it needs no longer to be checked against the world. — Janus
Quite a few folk say that. What is it you are agreeing with? — Banno
Validated construing is neither a matter of forcing events into pre-determined cognitive slots, nor a matter of shaping our models of the world in conformity with the presumed independent facts of that world via the method of falsification. Rather, it is a matter of making and remaking a world; building, inhabiting, and being changed by our interactive relations with our constructed environment. — Joshs
I'd also note here that 'sensorily' takes the sense organs existing in an environment for granted. What I call the constructive approach seems to want to take an interior as given and construct the exterior from this interior --but this conception of an interior seems to quietly depend on common sense. — plaque flag
There's an inheritance. A lot of 'choices' have already been made for you (by evolution, and on top of that by culture) so you build your own, sure, but not completely idiosyncratically -- and not incommensurably -- but using the same inheritance as everyone else, for the base level, and as everyone in your culture, your speech community, and so on, for others — Srap Tasmaner
“Perhaps we can see that it is not so much that the culture has forced conformity upon him as it is that his validational material is cast in terms of the similarities and contrasts offered within and between segments of his culture. “ (Kelly 1955)
“It may be difficult to follow this notion of culture as a validational system of events. And it may be even more difficult to reconcile with the idea of cultural control what we have said about man not being the victim of his biography. The cultural control we see is one which is within the person’s own construct system and it is imposed upon him only in the sense that it limits the kinds of evidence at his disposal. How he handles this evidence is his own affair, and persons manage it in a tremendous variety of ways.”
Our interpretations (our worldmaking techniques ) are constrained. Without calories and oxygen, we die. Our environment rewards some techniques and ignores or punishes others. For this reason, I wouldn't call the environment constructed but only partially constructed. There's something like a deep layer that we are forced to deal with, though we can and will endlessly debate the details of stubborn giveness, at least while bloodsugar continues to flow through our brain, the famous glucose hog. — plaque flag
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