And here's why populism leads to fascism: by emphasizing the divide between the rulers and the "ordinary people" and stating that key societal problems are because of the rulers, populism can easily descend into fascism as populism embraces strong leaders, wants to take the power away form the real or many times imagined "elite" and replace it with the movements followers, who will follow their leader. — ssu

So there's no such thing as left-wing populism, in your view? It's always right-wing populism? Or are you saying that both left-wing and right-wing populisms lead to fascism?

Above all, fascism opposes democracy and democratic system where decisions have to be negotiated with other political factions. It sees democracy as the reason for corruption. Also this leads to a command economy, because the leader has to be in charge of everything. — ssu

Yes, we know what fascism is, we're on page 10 of this discussion. It's not like we're trying to define the concept. We're a bit past that point by now.

The second development is Trump's demands for a list of all the FBI agents that worked on the Jan 6th insurrection and stolen documents cases. It seems many hundreds or even thousands of individuals could be fired or demoted for doing their jobs, following the exoneration pardoning of hundreds of insurrectionist police-bashers. — Wayfarer

Kash Patel in his confirmation hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee naturally had no idea of the insurrectionist that had pleaded guilty and now were pardoned. And simply wouldn't reply on who he will be going after. But if he gets to be the FBI director, nobody will be as loyal and a willing bulldog for Trump. Until when Trump is disappointed at him when he cannot give everything Trump wants.

So there's no such thing as left-wing populism, in your view? It's always right-wing populism? — Arcane Sandwich

Oh no! On the contrary. Read some Lenin and you can see the populist elements in bolshevism and in Marxism-Leninism. Imperial Russia wasn't obviously a democracy, but right from the start democracy wasn't something that the leftist revolutionaries had in mind. After all, the dictatorship of the Proletariat isn't in any way "democratic" with it's class enemies and violent revolution against the capitalists.

Or are you saying that both left-wing and right-wing populisms lead to fascism? — Arcane Sandwich

Yes, it can lead. Best example of left-wing populism is Venezuela. Would that be a fascist state? Democracy isn't working there. But hey! Maduro is happily taking back Venezuelan illegals from the US and Venezuelan oil isn't under the Trump tariffs (yet).

Oh no! On the contrary. Read some Lenin and you can see the populist elements in bolshevism and in Marxism-Leninism. Imperial Russia wasn't obviously a democracy, but right from the start democracy wasn't something that the leftist revolutionaries had in mind. After all, the dictatorship of the Proletariat isn't in any way "democratic" with it's class enemies and violent revolution against the capitalists. — ssu

So Lenin is a fascist now? Is that it?

Best example of left-wing populism is Venezuela. Would that be a fascist state? — ssu

Why would it be a fascist state and not a socialist one? Unless, of course, you're saying that socialism is the same thing as fascism. Is it?

But hey! Maduro is happily taking back Venezuelan illegals from the US and Venezuelan oil isn't under the Trump tariffs (yet). — ssu

Are you expecting me to defend Maduro? I'm not quite getting what it is that you expect from me. It seems like you're just blurting out nonsense. If that's the case, then I'll just blurt out some nonsense of my own: given that I saw Stolen on Netflix the other day, I have decided that from now on, I'm going to call you "Nastegallu". Suomi, Sámi, you're more or less related, aren't you? I mean, if I have anything to do with Maduro despite the fact that I'm from Argentina instead of Venezuela, surely I can call you a Sámi name instead of a Suomi one.

Hey Nastegallu, here's something interesting to consider for the discussion about fascism:

The Norwegianization of the Sámi (Norwegian: fornorsking av samer) was an official policy carried out by the Norwegian government directed at the Sámi people and later the Kven people of northern Norway, in which the goal was to assimilate non-Norwegian-speaking native populations into an ethnically and culturally uniform Norwegian population.

The assimilation process began in the 1700s, and was at that point motivated by a clear religious agenda. Over the course of the 1800s it became increasingly influenced by Social Darwinism and nationalism, in which the Sámi people and their culture were regarded as primitive and uncivilised. As such, it was argued that they needed to succumb to the Norwegian nation state. — Wikipedia

Another egregious and disastrous set of decisions are completely undermining US Agency for International Development, the main vehicle by means of which billions of dollars of US aid is disbursed globally across all manner of charity and aid organisations. It has >10,000 employees and disburses more than $50 billion annually. The entire organisation has been thrown into chaos, with the main website taken offline and all spending frozen, with rumours that it is to become absorbed by the State Department and its activities and funding slashed.

Again, the Musk oligarchy has been central to this, barging into secure offices and demanding access to confidential files and systems. Musk is acting like an overlord, with greater authority than any Federal official or deparmental secretary, and complete discretion in deciding what does or doesn't constitute proper spending of US dollars.

The placement of the security officials (of US AID) — John Voorhees and his deputy — on administrative leave is the latest effort by the Trump administration and Musk to wrest control of the world’s largest provider of food assistance, which they have denigrated without offering evidence as left-wing and corrupt amid objections from Democratic and Republican lawmakers.

Amid the turmoil at the agency, Matt Hopson, the USAID chief of staff and a political appointee, resigned, according to a current and former USAID official who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive situation. Hopson did not respond to requests for comment.Voorhees was put on leave after he did not allow DOGE officials to access a sensitive compartmented information facility — commonly known as a “SCIF” — an ultra-secure room where officials and government contractors take extraordinary precautions to review highly classified information, according to three current and former USAID officials.

A group of about eight DOGE officials entered the USAID building Saturday and demanded access to every door and floor, despite only a few of them having security clearance, according to senior Senate Democratic staff members who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the incident.

When USAID personnel attempted to block access to some areas, DOGE officials threatened to call federal marshals, one of the Democratic aides said. The DOGE officials were eventually given access to “secure spaces” including the security office. — USAID Security Officials on Leave after Refusing Musk Allies

Imagine the predicament of those staffers, many of whom have dedicated their lives to the welfare of their recipient states and nations, who's entire careers are now being ended under the MAGA jackboots.

So Lenin is a fascist now? Is that it? — Arcane Sandwich

He wasn't much of a communist or even socialist. And Stalin was a straight-up dictator, once he'd established state control of everything, himself as the state and woe to anyone who disagrees with his policies. Just like any other dictator. Whether the popular movement starts with peasants and labourers or disaffected white Christians or angry Muslims, the endgame is the same: one megalomaniac shouts at everybody and his tools carry out the pogroms.

Sure. All I'm saying is that if Lenin and Stalin can be called fascists, then, by parity of reasoning, Mussolini and Hitler can be called communists. It just doesn't make sense to me, on a conceptual level. It dilutes the meanings of the very terms "left" and "right". But if the argument is that all of them were dictatorial and oppressive, that's a different discussion.

Yet I suspect that Nastegallu's () argument isn't exactly that, it's something else. I could be wrong, though. That's one of the problems with saying (and reading) things between the lines.

Characterizing USAID as a criminal enterprise [Musk] or radical lunatics [Trump] is unusually appalling.

NGO's that contract with USAID to carry out programs in Africa, Central and South America, the Caribbean, and Asia must state clearly what their goals are, how they plan to reach them, and how to measure progress to show success or not early in the contracting process. Further, contractors are audited. These are all rational procedures in the interest of obtaining what taxes are paying for. If goals are not met, the agency may find themselves summarily defunded (as the NGO I was working for years ago was--it was sudden death).

Of course one can find fault with USAID. Its goals may or may not be aligned with a given country's priorities or maybe its self interests. But in general, USAID funds work for the common good. And foreign aid can be a difficult game for any NGO / country to play. The best laid plans of mice and men and all that.

Not that we should be surprised of course -- considering the radical lunatic felon pulling the US out of the Paris Climate Accords-- stupid idiotic moronic--the World Health Organization--imbicilic dumb cretinous--or slapping tariffs on our closest friends and largest trading partners--wicked self-defeating delusional.

Whether the popular movement starts with peasants and labourers or disaffected white Christians or angry Muslims, the endgame is the same: one megalomaniac shouts at everybody and his tools carry out the pogroms. — Vera Mont

Yes, that seems to often be the case. Authoritarianism quickly transcends and engulfs whatever politics may have been the original impetus.

This is getting really, really serious. Musk is completely out of control. When the idea of the government expenditure review was mooted, it was supposed Musk's committee would propose draconian cuts to Congress, and there'd be the usual argy bargy. But no! He's barged into the actual finance departments offices, and started looking at line item expenditures for things he wants to cut, after they've all been cleared by Congress. It's blatantly illegal. But Trump has already committed so many blatantly illegal actions in his first two weeks in office, that nobody knows how to respond. He's doing what Bannon says - flooding the zone with shit. But in this case, the shit involves literally trillions of dollars, tens of thousands of jobs, entire Government agencies. He and Musk are literally tearing apart Government in full public view, and they've hardly even gotten started yet.

And don't forget, SCOTUS has declared that the President has full immunity for official acts. So if anyone challenges Trump, he'll just shrug and say they're official acts, so sue me. And who's that lucky litigant going to be?

Pity those poor government employees - and there are literally tens of thousand of them - who's livelihoods are being threatened, and who's projects are being shelved or cut in front of their eyes. What is happening in the US right now is a massive atrocity.

Oh, and the reason USAID are being called 'radical lunatics' is simply because the staff tend to being - and for completely obvious reasons - Democratic-leaning. And that is a disqualifying attribute in the emerging One Party State of MAGA.

. All I'm saying is that if Lenin and Stalin can be called fascists, then, by parity of reasoning, Mussolini and Hitler can be called communists. — Arcane Sandwich

No, they cannot. Lenin may have started out as a communist, but went astray; Stalin had no ideology, any more than Trump does: he was out for personal power. Mussolini may have started out as a socialist, but went over to the dark side; Hitler's ideology was always fascist.
This is the danger of labels: they don't stay stuck.

This is getting really, really serious. — Wayfarer

Yes, it is. Musk has [apparently] gained access to the Federal Government's financial "Holy of Holies" -- the Federal Payment System.

"Sources tell my office that Treasury Secretary Bessent has granted DOGE *full* access to this system. Social Security and Medicare benefits, grants, payments to government contractors, including those that compete directly with Musk's own companies. All of it," Wyden posted to social media site BlueSky on Saturday evening.

DOGE's reported access to the payment system comes after the Washington Post reported on Friday that the former acting director of the Treasury, David A. Lebryk, was planning to exit the finance department of the federal government following a clash over granting DOGE access to its payment system. Lebryk oversaw the Treasury Department in the days between President Donald Trump's inauguration on Jan. 20 and Bessent's confirmation to lead the department on Jan. 27.

The barbarians have breached the gate and are in a position to start playing with the levers of power. And for them it IS play. What with presidential immunity and being the richest parasite on earth, Musk is neither elected nor cleared by congressional confirmation, and as far as I know, he has not been sworn to uphold the law and defend the constitution. He more like "been let loose".

Of course, being sworn in isn't quite the same as perpetual protection from pesky prosecution, but it at least establishes some sort of possible accountability.

I did post about that too, but I also heard that the Musk crew access was read-only, which means something. But still, it's an absolute outrage. People should be on the streets, although I guess that'd give Trump a chance to try out his new crowd-control methods.

I think that we are talking about autocracy and totalitarianism rather than just fascism. Totalitarianism would be more useful than the just fascism. Yet since obviously the US on the way to socialism, not at least yet (let's see what the counterforce is to the Trump presidency), the oligarchs in the government along Trump's family will have now the power.

Are you expecting me to defend Maduro? I'm not quite getting what it is that you expect from me. — Arcane Sandwich

Lol. Nope, hopefully not. And those smart lefties here on this forum won't defend the Soviet Union or Marxism-Leninism either. They might be not as hostile and will note some positive aspects, but in general they do use their brains and don't just loyally support something religiously.

A bit off the topic, but Swedes had similar policies. I think we Finns didn't, because we were looked down upon as Mongols by the Swedish racists of the 19th and early 20th Century. But that's history... a lot changed in Europe after the demise of the Third Reich, as you know.

What is hilarious in the present discourse only accepts the American juxtaposition of natives against white "colonial" thinking in how that doesn't fit to the Sámi. The Sámi look exactly like Finns, you wouldn't at all in any way differ them from Finns. The Sámi have their large share of blue eyed and blonds so it ridiculous for them to have to talk about Finns "whites". And the "clash" between the Finns and the Sámi happened I guess in Antiquity when there simply was no Finnish country (as Finnish tribes fought each other until the Middle Ages), so the idea of native people/colonizers is funny in the case of Lapland. And the Sami as actually so few here, far less than people in Greenland.

It's going to be as chaotic like this. This is 100% Trump. Simply US soft power and role is going to demolish. How on Earth will they (DOGE) look over thousands of projects and decide what is OK and what is not? As I've stated, Elon Musk will be the most hated person after a year of this as likely even Trump loyalists will vent their anger at him.

Imagine the predicament of those staffers, many of whom have dedicated their lives to the welfare of their recipient states and nations, who's entire careers are now being ended under the MAGA jackboots. — Wayfarer

Imagine the actual consequences in Africa and the Middle East. So you stop vaccination programs in Afrinca? Ok. Any thought about the consequences on that? So you basically stop the education department in Jordan? Ok. If people don't know, the US supports directly the Jordanian government:

The new MOU is subdivided into four baskets of funds, including $610 million in Economic
Support Funds (ESF) for direct U.S. budget support for the Jordanian government—the most of any country worldwide; $400 million in Foreign Military Funds (FMF) for Jordanian Armed
Forces to procure U.S. equipment; $350 million in ESF for USAID programming; and $75
million in “incentive” ESF to support Jordanian economic and public sector reforms.

Next in line is the chaos at the FBI, which will be emasculated.

And for this trade war, that likely will result in a global recession, is as bonkers as US taking Panama or Greenland.

A rational response for Mexico, Canada and the EU would to gang up on the US, try to compensate for the loss of US trade with encouraging trade between themselves.

Even if the trade war and domestic chaos will engulf the Trump administrations time and Trump will just move on from the Greenland annexation dreams (hopefully), the rift has already happened. European politicians have to take seriously Trump's comments about Greenland. What it does to the alliance, when the US wants to annex territory from a very loyal ally that already gives the US free usage and bases in Greenland is really something nobody wants to discuss. But the first thing is obvious: do not rely on the US. Hence if Europe really will spend more on defense, it will do it focusing on creating it's own military industrial complex like France.

The French model can prevail:


I think it's worse for Panama. There Trump really could at least take control of the Panama Canal Zone. I'm thinking starting a thread about it.

But if he gets to be the FBI director, nobody will be as loyal and a willing bulldog for Trump. Until when Trump is disappointed at him when he cannot give everything Trump wants. — ssu

And then Trump will honor his promise to deport families together, and deport Kash alongside his undocumented 4th cousin twice removed.

I think people could use a reminder of what fascism actually is, because this is getting a little embarrassing.

This is not 1930's Europe. Many aspects and aims of those regimes do not apply to Project 2025; some others are a perfect fit. Don't obsess over the ideological label: focus on the agenda.
(Also, note the IQ differential between those and this.)

No one knows what fascism is. No one has read nor quoted any fascist writings to discuss. Until that time fascism remains as Orwell defined it: “The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’.” And anti-Trumpism colonizes another topic.

No one knows what fascism is. — NOS4A2

I think it's fair to say that Mussolini knew what fascism is.

No one has read nor quoted any fascist writings to discuss. — NOS4A2

Mussolini has been quoted several times in this thread.

Mussolini has been quoted several times in this thread.

Right, by myself.

Right, by myself. — NOS4A2

And by others as well.

I don’t think that’s true. One can search the discussion and see that Mussolini’s name hardly appears, especially with quotes.. Write “Trump” in there, however, and you’ll find the true thrust of the thread.

I don’t think that’s true. One can search the discussion and see that Mussolini’s name hardly appears, especially with quotes. — NOS4A2

The following doesn't count?

Her: "Mussolini asked a crowd of people: 'Pópolo, ¿Qué quiere? ¿Manteca, o Cañones?" (People, what do you want, butter or cannons?" — Arcane Sandwich

It's from a speech that Mussolini gave in Belluno. Here's a reference in English.

A quote of your grandmother quoting Mussolini does not suffice, no.

A quote of your grandmother quoting Mussolini does not suffice, no. — NOS4A2

Which is why I linked to an English newspaper from 1938 for that quote. That doesn't count either?

(...) The expected answers were shouted back at him from well-disciplined ranks. "I know',” he shouted at Padua, "that each of you and all of you are ready for any eventuality." "Yes,” roared back the crowd "Butter or cannons—which have we chosen?” he asked at Belluno. “Cannons." came the response. The speech at Belluno, the second of the day. Was II Duce a sixth brief speech within a week in support of German minority claim in Czechoslovakia. He was expected to speak again tomorrow when he visits Vicenzia. (...) — The Sheridan Press (1938)

Which is why I linked to an English newspaper from 1938 for that quote. That doesn't count either?

I suppose it counts now, after the fact. Thanks, I’ll check it out.