• EdwardC
    23
    During any age, there is always an ethos, an ethic by which that age develops its political character and social personality. While certain ages had more prevalent and identifiable characters, ours is one that hides its nature, and maintains its values in a sub-active manner, that is meant to say without a title, or a movement, or party representation. In fact, the greatest and most powerful attribute of this age’s ethic is its invisibility. For if there was tyranny would it not be recognized by those who have eradicated it in the past? If there was propaganda would it’s application not be investigated by the free in thought? This vague phantom cannot be observed. Additionally, it cannot be pointed to in any other period of history. Certainly, the Age of Enlightenment was an age of liberalization of both knowledge and government, as the reign of kings was that of monarchic dynasty. Fascism was quite conspicuous in its nationalized behavior as communism was quite well noted for its ideal. No, it is clear that ours is an age of elusive character, yet ever present and strongly featured to the adequate observer. In addition, and unfortunately, our ethos tends to contradict the facade of this democratic time in history, which was so arduously toiled over to reach. The malevolence of this spirit stands in contrast to the freedoms of the 21st century, which I will discuss in further detail in the following entry.

    The roots of this contradictory character, according to my research and observations, are often sparse and somewhat obscure, but I trace them to the lifestyles of European hedonists and, more obscurely, to the spiritual practices of the priestly caste of various Indo-European and Mesopotamian centered societies. Sounds unusual? I implore you to read on and into the substance of this argument. I continue on this topic. In these cultural and spiritual contexts there existed two key factors pertaining to each respectively: economic/imperial splendor and pacifist withdrawal. A splendor typified by the violent whims of an overindulgent upper class and a withdrawal into the spiritual quality of nature.

    Now to the state of democratic nations. Known for their open structures, opportunities in industry, and unrestrained promulgation of the potential of the individual, they’re values are currently under assault and the populace mostly careless or without recourse. There exists in these nations a force which subversively opposes these values and actively seeks to rob the citizenry of their function.

    Most of this begins in the private sector by what I’ve entitled “cultural moderators.” These are entities (groups of individuals, companies, entire industries) which share a common ethic and employ tactics to fortify their beliefs. Of course, with some room for exaggeration, the economy is balanced by opposing actors, however the establishment radicals, which this entry is dedicated to, will be the subject of detailing. These cultural moderators who act in the interest of the establishment of the current age are most commonly found in industries such as entertainment and media, however they can be spotted in finance and academics as well. Essentially, the individualist and fervently self-expressionist values proposed within industry react with an aspect of human nature to negate the need for social reasoning and political representation. These cultural moderators use symbols within poetry and the common arts to inject a sense of hyper-sexualization and even tribalism into the collective conscious, so as to achieve amongst the populace base ideations of sexual virility, racial violence, and primitive stature. The public is fed by pop-culture, with politics taking a secondary status as a cultural practice. Pop-culture itself, without mentioning the many schools of thought within academics and how they are interpreted to promote similar conclusions, is often used as a tool by industrialists, who I’ve heard called current day oligarchs, to spread criminal sentiments amongst the citizenry, essentially supplanting the common man from his legal status and catapulting the famed and wealthy into a state of accordance with the government. This goes without mentioning the pull that wealth and status offers in reducing punishment for criminal behavior, allowing those in power to always have an upper hand in the legal system. Meanwhile, the resources afforded by this industry are so extensive, as is its appeal, that it can only be assumed with assurance that its possessors could imbue the government with their own chosen representatives, meant to further disconnect man from his society. There is a stark nihilism that has begun to dominate the information outlets available to the regular populace. Note TikTok: fifteen to thirty second long videos displaying such meaningless activities as the construction of statues made of chocolate or stuffing they’re face with some kind of unidentifiable meat. This is primarily due to an unrestrained and ubiquitous bourgeois element within society that has replaced the unbiased press, the sharing of information which is actually relevant to people’s political status.

    Neo-liberal reforms and the corporatization of attitudes had worked to hinder the citizenry from engaging realistically with their surroundings. Often, this process has claimed to determine for us which topics are of political relevance or importance, usually falling in the realm of Middle-Eastern conflicts (*reference to introduction) or the repeatedly stale need for boundless sensitivity in social life. For example, the privatization of the public sphere, essentially its status change from open to scrutinized, abundantly contemplative to acutely aware of itself as a threat to the political establishment and somehow the consumer industry, while allowing for greater distribution of thought, has moderated its ability to behave transformatively. Obviously, the political usuals are more often seen disputing with each other over infractions to rules of conduct rather than any true ideations between the open-minded of furthering their status in our chosen government.

    This brings me to my next point about matters in the public/civic realms.
    I’ve determined the ways in which an overindulgent upper class acts to moderate free thought and instill feelings of tribe behavior. I will try to express my second value emphasis from the introduction, that of pacifism and withdrawal. On to the civic world: more often than not, taxes are used for what I have deemed “maintenance spending,” the government behavior of directing its internal resources into menial programs (i.e. the dole and welfare programs, public service and plumbing upkeep) rather than the development of agencies or offices that make the democratic infrastructure more accessible, improve education, or promote cultural activity. Essentially, the reforms that led to a further socialized economy were only enacted to keep drug addicts from going through withdrawals (*humor). In addition to this, instead of agents who have been educated in its foundations and inspired to execute its ideals, one will find our democratic structure populated by only loosely affiliated officers, unimpassioned chair holders, and even vacancies in certain departments meant to protect the rights of the people. At this point, the civic body has undergone malaise, behaving in a way that transfers a state of imposed pacifism onto the general public even if they are invested in political affairs in that its offices are used for only menial tasks. I have first hand experience with this as someone who has attended the activities of local government. Without any exaggeration, I can reveal that most of the slots on its calendar are reserved for exercise classes for senior citizens, broken up by an occasional superfluous board meeting. This is how it feels to live in this democracy. It must be only those with the best college degrees, highest paying jobs, and social outlets and connections who can find themselves in a position of influence.

    I remind you to keep in mind that I am from America and this may be part of why the starkness of this age is so apparent, what with its less than reputable racial history and the vengeful sentiments that it has produced amongst large swaths of the population who do end up holding positions in the government. Is it possible that government offices meant to protect civil liberties are vacant? Possible that positive attitudes have spoiled and opportunity has become more traceless with some amount of intention? Is the current establishment seeking vengeance more than it would promote prosperity? Can a society so easily permeated, both intellectually and organizationally, ever be coaxed out of its disdain for (or perhaps unawareness of) the liberty affirming values it somehow at once functions alongside and in opposition to?
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.3k
    I think you are reading to much into this, most civilisations tend to suffer from entropy over time and slide into decadence.

    And the reason for this cycle is pretty straightforward. At the start of their ascend a people generally have strict norms and values, and high social cohesion because they find themselves in a precarious situation being surrounded by older and bigger neighbours... that is the only way to survive essentially.

    Then as they become more powerfull, and as generations get replaced with new ones, the pressing need for these strict norms and social cohesion disappears because they don't have to fear their neighbours so much anymore, and they generally have more than enough wealth... and so they tend to erode over time. It's hard to keep simulating a need when it isn't there.

    I think we are just seeing the latest example of an empire running on fumes. But, there are a lot of fumes, and some kind of temporary re-invigoration isn't impossible, so it could take a while.
  • EdwardC
    23
    I don’t know. I think there is a deliberate character to an age. You’re right that it’s often something about the weak vs. the powerful, but other than that, I’m not sure how much of this you related to…
  • tim wood
    8.9k
    That's some first post! So much in it it's not-so-easy to engage with. Maybe a summary easier - is this fair?

    Para. 1: Cultures shaped by forces. In some cultures clearly evident, in 21st century USA, not so clearly evident and even covert and contradictory.

    Para. 2: Examples. In the US, a malevolent and subversive spirit working against Democratic ideals.

    Para. 3: Historical roots of spirit, Pagan and hedonistic. Emphasis on wealth and display, and withdrawal and disengagement.

    Para. 4: Democracies subverted by exaggerated and indulgent individual self-interest, fed by a few seeking profit and power.

    Para. 5: Influence from - by - private persons, individuals, groups, corporate interests. Often with a public voice, but with covert resources and agendas, often anti-democratic.

    Para. 6: Methods: hyper-sexualization and tribalism substituted for political engagement. Democracy rendered irrelevant.

    Para. 7: Pop-culture a tool for subversion. Its appeal vitiating both the common sense and political power of the common man. Purveyors of pop-culture becoming more government-like, and their representatives politically empowered.

    Para. 8: Corporate interests working against the common good.

    Para. 9: Taxes increasingly for maintenance rather than for improvement and development.

    Para. 10: Focus of civic energy on short-term irrelevancies of individual well-being. Broad-scale apathy and surrender of influence.

    ------------------------

    A metaphor occurs to me. You have created a framework on which are tied various threads, then looking at how the threads interact and work. Not a bad model. But what it models is more accurately a loom on which is mounted and being woven into a warp and weft the material of a great fabric. One can indeed look at the strengths and capacities and effects of threads, but the overall dynamics of the fabric itself and its synergy are of greater magnitude and significance.

    Or another metaphor, being concerned with currents and coastal effects, one can neglect and even forget the power of the ocean itself.

    And focusing on parts at the expense of the whole can lead to conspiracy theories and paranoia - but it's also true that just because a person may be (a little - or a lot) paranoid does not mean that they're wrong. That is, I think you (should) have more to say.
  • 180 Proof
    14.5k
    focusing on parts at the expense of the whole can lead to conspiracy theories and paranoiatim wood
    :up:

    [C]ivilisations tend to suffer from entropy over time and slide into decadence.ChatteringMonkey
    :up: :up:
  • T Clark
    13.1k


    Welcome to the forum.

    I see a reference to research and observations by an "adequate observer," but no actual research results or observations, just vague general statements without support. That makes the whole essay just a "seems to me" exercise, the content of which happens to match the prejudices of many of us here on the forum.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.3k
    I don’t know. I think there is a deliberate character to an age. You’re right that it’s often something about the weak vs. the powerful, but other than that, I’m not sure how much of this you related to…EdwardC

    Yeah, I've read your post several times to figure out what exactly you were pointing to. And I'm still not sure. While I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said, I seems very specific to me... as if you are abstracting and generalising from a concrete local history that really happened.

    What stood out to me was a sense of decadence/corruption in general as I alluded to.

    But aside from that I don't think I agree with an age having a 'deliberate' character in the sense that there is some cabal consciously and consistently channeling culture in certain ways to benefit from it... I think these things happen far more opportunistically and by accident than as the result of conscious deliberation.
  • Vera Mont
    3.7k
    During any age, there is always an ethos, an ethic by which that age develops its political character and social personality.EdwardC
    I have a problem with that basic premise .... after which, it gets a little confusing. How long is 'an age'? Two centuries? Five? Wasn't monarchy the standard form of government during the European 'age' of Enlightenment? Don't fascist and communist regimes exist concurrently?

    Different continents, different periods, different cultures can be said to have particular characteristics, but I very much doubt there is much commonality in the ethos or political organization of Asia, Europe and North America in 400BCE or 1200CE.
    Some things in human behaviour are constant throughout recorded history: social organization, competition, co-operation and inter-national conflict. These basic urges are expressed in changing forms and patterns, according the religious, or militaristic, or technological or economic trend. In the so-called global culture of today, economic forces are the predominant movers of public opinion and attitude - far more so in North America and Asia than elsewhere, and since the USA and China are the major economic entities, they influence every other culture. But there is a lot of other stuff going on in the shadow of commercialism.

    I heard a quite clever historian say the other day: After two or three generations of peace, prosperity and personal freedom, the people of a nation begin to believe that this is the norm. The have faith in the permanence of their democratic edifice. In fact, democracy is a fragile thing, in need of constant protection. When people become complacent they are easy prey for the greedy and power-hungry.
  • EdwardC
    23
    I believe the prevailing value set that runs through a society and even a time in history certainly can be said to have philosophical, ethical, and even mytho-spiritual roots. This is what I’ve come to conclude based primarily on first hand observation and research into anthropology and the arts.
  • EdwardC
    23
    Those sets of values are what I find to be most prominent in society. I’ll point out that the private sector definitely seems to instill a sense of tribalism through certain industries, mostly those concerned with poetry or art.

    The government and the middle classes allow for that state of civilization, which is often corrupt or tyrannical, through disengagement. But I will admit that this is mostly a thought experiment, albeit one that I think has essential qualities of truth to it in the way it presents our age.
  • Vera Mont
    3.7k
    I believe the prevailing value set that runs through a society and even a time in history certainly can be said to have philosophical, ethical, and even mytho-spiritual roots. This is what I’ve come to conclude based primarily on first hand observation and research into anthropology and the arts.EdwardC
    Anything can be said to have roots, but locating the root and identifying the plant are particular tasks that 'an adequate' observer should be able to perform.
    Can you define or describe this universal value set for any specific date? For ease of verification, try 1200 CE. Which civilizations shared what values and what were the ethical and mytho-spiritual roots of those values?
  • EdwardC
    23
    Not exactly, however, I would go so far as to claim a distinctly European character to the ethos I describe in this post
  • Tom Storm
    8.6k
    Para. 1: Cultures shaped by forces. In some cultures clearly evident, in 21st century USA, not so clearly evident and even covert and contradictory.

    Para. 2: Examples. In the US, a malevolent and subversive spirit working against Democratic ideals.

    Para. 3: Historical roots of spirit, Pagan and hedonistic. Emphasis on wealth and display, and withdrawal and disengagement.

    Para. 4: Democracies subverted by exaggerated and indulgent individual self-interest, fed by a few seeking profit and power.

    Para. 5: Influence from - by - private persons, individuals, groups, corporate interests. Often with a public voice, but with covert resources and agendas, often anti-democratic.

    Para. 6: Methods: hyper-sexualization and tribalism substituted for political engagement. Democracy rendered irrelevant.

    Para. 7: Pop-culture a tool for subversion. Its appeal vitiating both the common sense and political power of the common man. Purveyors of pop-culture becoming more government-like, and their representatives politically empowered.

    Para. 8: Corporate interests working against the common good.

    Para. 9: Taxes increasingly for maintenance rather than for improvement and development.

    Para. 10: Focus of civic energy on short-term irrelevancies of individual well-being. Broad-scale apathy and surrender of influence.
    tim wood

    Excellent. I think that covers it for me.

    But aside from that I don't think I agree with an age having a 'deliberate' character in the sense that there is some cabal consciously and consistently channeling culture in certain ways to benefit from it... I think these things happen far more opportunistically and by accident than as the result of conscious deliberation.ChatteringMonkey

    Indeed. But we do seem to live in an era which is consistently selling the idea that this is the amongst worst eras imaginable and that deep state or secularism, liberalism, the Left or the lizard people are to blame. It seems we need to return to a golden era - for Trumpists it's the MAGA fantasy, for some philosophers it seems to be Platonism or God.
  • Vera Mont
    3.7k

    What is not exactly what?
    Okay, so you're pretty much down to Europe, rather than the whole era. Given the period - say 1000-1300 CE, does that make the definition and/or description of ethos/values/character any clearer? The roots of it any better exposed?

    See, my problem here is that you seem to have an interesting theme, possibly an interesting theory, but so far, you presentation of it has been far too nebulous to discuss.
  • Tom Storm
    8.6k
    While certain ages had more prevalent and identifiable characters, ours is one that hides its nature, and maintains its values in a sub-active manner, that is meant to say without a title, or a movement, or party representation.EdwardC

    Why do you say this?

    Isn't this the era or radical identity politics? The Right have religious nationalism, the Left have trans issues, decolonization, etc. And it seems this is also the era where 'no one knows who should be in charge' any more. Pluralism has finally marooned any semblance of unity.

    A lot of what you write here seems inscrutable. For instance:

    At this point, the civic body has undergone malaise, behaving in a way that transfers a state of imposed pacifism onto the general public even if they are invested in political affairs in that its offices are used for only menial tasks.EdwardC

    What does this mean? What is an example of this?

    Many of the regulations in the corporate world, subject as they are to whim, which seem to be directed at some fictitious monster, only end up detracting quality men from beneficial financial situations, at best leaving them dependent on insufficient social programs, which brings me to my next point regarding pacifism and spiritual withdrawal.EdwardC

    It's hard to know what you mean. What would be some examples of this in action?
  • Vera Mont
    3.7k
    This is not an improvement on the first version.

    During any age, there is always an ethos, an ethic by which that age develops its political character and social personality.EdwardC
    Demonstrate it. Or at least describe its manifestation and give examples.

    For if there was tyranny would it not be recognized by those who have eradicated it in the past?EdwardC
    There is and it is recognized by some of the descendants of those who have defeated one or another form of it in the past. Tyranny has never been eradicated.
    If there was propaganda would it’s application not be investigated by the free in thought?EdwardC
    There is and it is.
    Neither of these conditions is new or unique to the present.
    At this point, the civic body has undergone malaise, behaving in a way that transfers a state of imposed pacifism onto the general public even if they are invested in political affairs in that its offices are used for only menial tasks.EdwardC
    What pacifism - in a country that has never been without some kind of war for more than 11 years in its short history? Who is currently pacific in the armed-to-teeth USA?

    Please try to articulate your theory and ground it in something less vague than discontent with the current pop culture.
  • EdwardC
    23
    Mr. Storm, what I mean to relay here is a sense of the status quo in politics. The fact that there are no wide-spanning movements to be named in opposition to the way that the government and economy relate is what I am pointing to. As someone who reads history, it looks as though generations from now, our age will be read as one with little to distinguish the people’s goals from that of the establishment - an establishment that employs little democratic structure in the face of unrestrained private interest. Of course there are movements here or there, but are they enough to make an impact? As you say there isn’t any unity.
  • EdwardC
    23
    Maybe you just disagree. This entry is intended to highlight a cultural ethic which is communicated through industry and academics, describing also how the government’s functionality during this time period, disengaged and unreachable, allows for said ethic to effect the people, leaving them without significant recourse.

    It’s also a type of comment on the status quo as I mentioned to Tom Storm.
  • Tom Storm
    8.6k
    Of course there are movements here or there, but are they enough to make an impact? As you say there isn’t any unity.EdwardC

    But my point is that the zeitgeist is very much one of dissatisfaction with the status quo. Perhaps ultimately the collapse of the liberal consensus, as Žižek puts it. There are many ways to encapsulate this. And it might be a simplification to ever try to summarise any era.

    But you didn’t explain the paragraphs I quoted- it’s hard to follow your syntax which seems vague. I’m interested in what you meant.
  • ssu
    8.2k
    While certain ages had more prevalent and identifiable characters, ours is one that hides its nature, and maintains its values in a sub-active manner, that is meant to say without a title, or a movement, or party representation.

    In fact, the greatest and most powerful attribute of this age’s ethic is its invisibility.
    EdwardC
    In the era of the internet and social media? I think never before have you had such direct knowledge of what people think as this forum is quite the exception as we are anonymous. Yet we aren't so for the all seeing algorithms that can easily handle the vast amount of data that they mine on.

    Now to the state of democratic nations. Known for their open structures, opportunities in industry, and unrestrained promulgation of the potential of the individual, they’re values are currently under assault and the populace mostly careless or without recourse.EdwardC
    What is happening is that many people are disillusioned on how entrenched the elites are of the democracies are and how it seems to go on without not taking them into consideration, but serving the richest people. Just look at how the US is run by a two-party system where the power is held by age, which shows how complacent the whole system is. Mr Biden is a perfect example, something similar to the Soviet Politbyro where the oldest take the helm if they just live long enough. Hence you have populism and populist who see democracy itself as the obstacle. Which is unfortunate, but that's what we have.

    But my point is that the zeitgeist is very much one of dissatisfaction with the status quo. Perhaps ultimately the collapse of the liberal consensus, as Zizek puts it.Tom Storm
    When the status quo means that the ultra-rich few dominate, it's not so difficult to see why populism is so widely popular. Once in power, the leftist liberals and the social democrats in these countries are perfectly happy to mingle with the super rich and attend meeting like Davos and Bilderberg meetings. That hardly gives an impression that these leftists would be against the system to basically for the billionaires.
  • Tom Storm
    8.6k
    When the status quo means that the ultra-rich few dominate, it's not so difficult to see why populism is so widely popular.ssu

    Although it is harder to see how Trump, say, a member of the ultra rich and an obedient servant of corporate interests (lower taxes, deregulation, oligarchs, etc) will help any of the little guys who so love him.

    Once in power, the leftist liberals and the social democrats in these countries are perfectly happy to mingle with the super rich and attend meeting like Davos and Bilderberg meetings. That hardly gives an impression that these leftists would be against the system to basically for the billionaires.ssu

    Leftists in the West seem to be neoliberals, with the odd whiff of progressive social policy. As Cornel West said of Obama - he was the Citibank President 'a black mascot of Wall Street.'
  • ssu
    8.2k
    But without proper interference in matters of the economy, it will be as though the means of the populace remain vacant, no less because individuals aspire toward great stature more than the freedom to manifest ideas amongst themselves and society as a whole.EdwardC
    Once the basic freedom of voting rights and equality under law have been accomplished, there's not that clear desire for more freedom than aspiring for more stature or wealth. For example feminism in the age of the suffragettes was totally different than today.

    In fact liberalism has morphed into 'neo-liberalism' of today, yet in the 19th Century it was quite valid as a thought to be against the last bastions of feudalism. It's the curse of ideologies, which are successful and achieve their objectives. The next "wave" or generation after the achievement victories has to find something else, which usually isn't as obvious as a goal as the former objectives were.

    Although it is harder to see how Trump, say, a member of the ultra rich and an obedient servant of corporate interests (lower taxes, deregulation, oligarchs, etc) will help any of the little guys who so love him.Tom Storm
    Trump is the perfect example: a rich playboy that desperately wanted be inside and part of the in-crowd, but who was ostracized because of his many failures as businessman. But who of his supporters will listen to that? You just have the Trump derangement syndrome and believing in the God-Emperor shows how strong you are for "the cause". Even if there isn't a cause, who cares.
    v5q9vekuhoq51.jpg?auto=webp&s=f989da4d20badaba594b9f4aa0710c29767c4841

    Leftists in the West seem to be neoliberals, with the odd whiff of progressive social policy. As Cornel West said of Obama - he was the Citibank President 'a black mascot of Wall Street.'Tom Storm

    And that comes to the reasons just why democracy is in trouble. Democracy does mean the attempt towards consensus and making compromises. The common fallacy is to think that others think like you (and only are ill-informed or don't know the reality). If the political field is left to few parties without true change happening every once and a while (and for the parties in power understanding that they might lose it all), the stagnation creates anger. It doesn't get better if the parties encourage political polarization by portraying the other side as an enemy. People will then look at the whimsical and harmful fringe parties either on the right or the left. And what is worse, once they've committed to a populist, they won't admit what kind of disaster the guy is, because they don't want to hear the "I told you so" from the other side. And naturally, the other side is the enemy.

    (Why, everything is great in Venezuela!)
    Supporters-of-Venezuelan-President-Nicolas-Maduro-photo-TeleSur.jpg
  • Vera Mont
    3.7k
    Maybe you just disagree.EdwardC

    I disagree with some of your statements about history, values and 'ethic'. As for the rest, I simply can't decipher what you're trying to say. Maybe simplify the vocabulary for us literalists?

    This paragraph, for example, seems to have some major lacunae; I can't parse it:
    This entry is intended to highlight a cultural ethic which is communicated through industry and academics, describing also how the government’s functionality during this time period, disengaged and unreachable, allows for said ethic to effect the people, leaving them without significant recourse.EdwardC
    The US government is obviously reachable https://www.usa.gov/agency-index; if not altogether functional. But here, a distinction should be made between the stalemated Congress and the various capable and effective agencies that carry out the nation's daily business. They're not in the ethic business; their job is to distribute welfare cheques, test food and bridges for safety, curtail flooding, supervise the entry ports and hundreds of other essential services, which they mostly do quite well, in spite of politically appointed department heads.
  • fdrake
    6k


    If you revise a post edit the original post you made in thread. I merged both discussions as one was redundant.
  • EdwardC
    23
    post has been revised
  • EdwardC
    23
    post has been revised
  • EdwardC
    23
    post has been revised
  • EdwardC
    23
    post has been revised
  • Vera Mont
    3.7k
    Yes. It's even longer and more opaque.
  • EdwardC
    23
    You don’t seem to want to understand, I’m not surprised at all. I call it the establishment for a reason.
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