• schopenhauer1
    11k
    In Western countries, Christian nationalism often seeks to impose pro-life policies, ban certain forms of sexual speech in public settings such as libraries and schools, promote Christian ethical teachings in educational curricula, and restrict access to certain websites. Similarly, Islamic nationalism enforces these and many more restrictions, often with even stricter adherence to religious doctrines.

    Religionists argue that these restraints are necessary to prevent civilization from descending into decadence and excessive hedonism, where higher values are discarded in favor of simple pleasures. They believe that without these moral guidelines, society would lose its ethical foundation and succumb to chaos.

    On the other hand, humanists, existentialists, and secularists who hold notions of "virtue" or "civic virtue" argue that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society. They believe that reason, individual rights, and scientific inquiry provide a framework for a meaningful and virtuous life without the need for religious dogma.

    The Role of Industrial/Post-Industrial Society
    In modern industrial and post-industrial societies, economic and educational institutions can offer their own mechanisms for leading what has traditionally been considered a "meaningful" life. These settings provide opportunities for personal and intellectual growth, community engagement, and the pursuit of knowledge. However, whether these mechanisms are sufficient or need to be cultivated externally is a matter of debate.

    Internal Mechanisms: Universities and workplaces can foster a sense of purpose through education, innovation, and the development of skills. They promote the idea that contributing to scientific and technological advancements, as well as participating in civic life, can provide meaning and fulfillment.

    External Cultivation: Some argue that without a broader, external framework of meaning—such as that provided by religion—these internal mechanisms might fall short. They suggest that human beings need a sense of being part of a larger cosmic scheme to find true fulfillment.

    The Economy as a De Facto Religion
    In the absence of religion, the industrialized economy can take on a quasi-religious role, providing structure and purpose through work, consumerism, and technological progress. However, this secular utility-maximizing approach often lacks the deep, existential meaning that religion offers.

    Economic Instrumentalism: The focus on maximizing utility and fulfilling preferences can lead to a hollow existence, where actions are driven by the pursuit of pleasure or material success without a deeper sense of purpose. This instrumental approach is about "doing to do," a cycle of activity without an overarching meaning.

    Humanist Pursuits: For humanists, meaning can come from scientific inquiry, the arts, and building technologically advanced societies. These pursuits aim to improve the human condition and advance knowledge, but they can still feel empty without a connection to something greater than individual or collective achievements.

    Existentialist Perspective
    Authenticity:
    Embracing Freedom: Making choices free from societal constraints.
    Conscious Decisions: Reflecting personal beliefs and desires in actions.
    Responsibility: Owning the consequences of one's choices and life path.

    However, the pursuit of authenticity in an indifferent world can become a circular and endless endeavor, leading to isolation, despair, and potential nihilism.

    ___________________________________________________

    Pessimism and Antinatalism: Addressing the Shortcomings of Secular Philosophies
    Humanism

    Humanism champions the pursuit of happiness, ethical living, and progress, with an optimistic belief in the potential for human improvement. Yet, it often glosses over the fundamental suffering that pervades life and the fleeting nature of pleasure. Pessimism, on the other hand, cuts through this idealism, recognizing that suffering is a constant part of existence. By acknowledging this harsh reality, pessimism offers a more grounded perspective that avoids the disillusionment that comes from chasing unattainable humanist ideals.

    Economy as De Facto Religion
    When the economy becomes a de facto religion, it offers a sense of purpose through work, consumerism, and progress, promising fulfillment through material success. However, this focus on utility often leads to a repetitive cycle of "doing to do," where the pursuit of work and consumption feels empty and devoid of deeper meaning. Pessimism highlights the hollowness of this approach, showing how it ultimately fails to address the root of human suffering. Antinatalism takes this critique further by suggesting that preventing new lives from entering this meaningless cycle is a compassionate choice.

    Existentialism
    Existentialism emphasizes the importance of personal freedom and authenticity in creating meaning. Yet, it struggles with the paradox of needing to be authentic while also grappling with the burden of crafting one's own purpose. This can lead to feelings of isolation and despair. Pessimism acknowledges these issues, accepting that the search for true authenticity might be an endless and unresolvable challenge. Antinatalism extends this idea by proposing that avoiding the creation of new lives—who would face this existential struggle—is a more ethical approach.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    Note, for this one, I did use ChatGPT to help flesh out some ideas. This was not a "one and done" prompt, but was continually being reshaped. So if the above sounds familiar in tone and idiosyncratic style, that's why.. However, I found it valuable to just go with it, as it basically lays out the ideas I wanted to convey.
  • Tarskian
    658
    Because of the vagaries of life, people may end up in need of faith and hope. The ability to keep going will then have to come from a spiritual source. What mere rationality can bring to the table, will at that point be exhausted already. In those circumstances, people who believe in religion, will be at an advantage. They will be able to find motivation beyond what seems rationally possible.
  • Wayfarer
    22.7k
    In Western countries…schopenhauer1

    Such as…? It sounds like the agenda of the ‘radical right’ in the USA, but if my intuition is correct, they’re going to get a shellacking in the forthcoming elections.

    On the other hand, humanists, existentialists, and secularists who hold notions of "virtue" or "civic virtue" argue that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society.schopenhauer1

    I read years ago that sexual products and services including production and distribution of pornography generate many times the revenue of, say, sports broadcasting. I see not a lot of comment from those espousing ‘enlightenment values’ in that regard. When there’s discussion of the possible connection between pornography and sexual violence against women, there’s a lot of throat-clearing about the evils of censorship and a correct understanding of ‘consent’.

    They believe that reason, individual rights, and scientific inquiry provide a framework for a meaningful and virtuous life without the need for religious dogma.schopenhauer1

    Against the backdrop of universe which is assumed to be devoid of reason and purpose. The religions and cosmic philosophies of times past at least provided a meaningful sense of the human place in the grand scheme, nowadays sublimated into Elon Musk’s utopian dreams of colonising Mars. (And I wonder how many will benefit from that adventure, even if it happens, which I doubt.)
  • Amity
    5.2k
    I haven't read all of your OP but interesting to hear about your use of ChatGPT and your reshaping of prompts. Going with its flow, fleshing out ideas.

    In Western countries, Christian nationalism often seeks to impose pro-life policies, ban certain forms of sexual speech in public settings such as libraries and schools, promote Christian ethical teachings in educational curricula, and restrict access to certain websites. Similarly, Islamic nationalism enforces these and many more restrictions, often with even stricter adherence to religious doctrines.

    Religionists argue that these restraints are necessary to prevent civilization from descending into decadence and excessive hedonism, where higher values are discarded in favor of simple pleasures. They believe that without these moral guidelines, society would lose its ethical foundation and succumb to chaos.
    schopenhauer1

    Yes. The argument - or fear of deteriorating morality if there is no appeal to a higher Being or the Word of God - has been going on ad nauseam. Unfortunately, deeply affecting e.g. American politics.
    It will be interesting to see how things might change. God seems to be as entrenched as guns.

    On the other hand, humanists, existentialists, and secularists who hold notions of "virtue" or "civic virtue" argue that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society.
    — schopenhauer1

    I read years ago that sexual products and services including production and distribution of pornography generate many times the revenue of, say, sports broadcasting. I see not a lot of comment from those espousing ‘enlightenment values’ in that regard.

    When there’s discussion of the possible connection between pornography and sexual violence against women, there’s a lot of throat-clearing about the evils of censorship and a correct understanding of ‘consent’.
    Wayfarer

    I hope nobody objects but I have shared the above in another thread. It touched on my thoughts regarding stories and any 'catharsis' gained.
    From @Jack Cummins - 'Tragedy and Pleasure?'
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/923721

    It's not only online pornography that shapes attitudes towards violence against women. Most thrillers - Nordic Noir - continue to have women as victims. Men, with or without religious beliefs, as perps.
    Arguably, the Bible Story with its power and paternalism is used by some to justify any behaviour. And promote any malevolent political policy. The hypocrisy breath-taking.
  • Echarmion
    2.7k
    On the other hand, humanists, existentialists, and secularists who hold notions of "virtue" or "civic virtue" argue that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society. They believe that reason, individual rights, and scientific inquiry provide a framework for a meaningful and virtuous life without the need for religious dogma.schopenhauer1

    A question which I have increasingly asked myself is whether the secularisation of enlightenment values was ever actually complete. As you note, religious belief fulfills a plausible spiritual need of

    being part of a larger cosmic schemeschopenhauer1

    The secularisation of the humanist ideals - which were first derived from christian theology, has been successful, but it was also arguably underpinned by a continued Spiritual belief in a god. This belief is waning though.

    Today these secular valued are challenged from multiple directions. On the one hand there is the internal challenge of increasingly polarised societies where the de-humanisation of opponents is increasingly normalised. On the other hand there is the external challenge by international actors who explicitly reject "western" values both on secular (e.g. China) and religious grounds.

    Will the humanist values be strong enough to weather this challenge without the added resilience that a spiritual belief in their ultimate value offers?
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    Because of the vagaries of life, people may end up in need of faith and hope. The ability to keep going will then have to come from a spiritual source. What mere rationality can bring to the table, will at that point be exhausted already. In those circumstances, people who believe in religion, will be at an advantage. They will be able to find motivation beyond what seems rationally possible.Tarskian

    But what if religion is just seen as it is, a fantasy meme of the past, a part of ancient cultural community practice, but not necessary post-Enlightenment? I am not saying the secular options for meaning provide a better example either. Clearly, my answer is to embrace philosophical pessimism as a clear-viewed way of understanding life. Philosophical pessimism is the antidote, not the symptom.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    Such as…? It sounds like the agenda of the ‘radical right’ in the USA, but if my intuition is correct, they’re going to get a shellacking in the forthcoming elections.Wayfarer

    True, this is more of a US phenomenon, but there are right-wing movements in Europe and other places, perhaps less overtly religion-based. Certainly, abortion is still an issue for the US, and a vocal minority for religionists in other places. Somehow abortion became attached to Evangelical and Catholic political policy in the US. This was not always the case until the 70s.

    According to this stark first line in Politico:
    White evangelicals in the 1970s didn’t initially care about abortion. They organized to defend racial segregation in evangelical institutions — and only seized on banning abortion because it was more palatable than their real goal.The Religious Right and the Abortion Myth

    I read years ago that sexual products and services including production and distribution of pornography generate many times the revenue of, say, sports broadcasting. I see not a lot of comment from those espousing ‘enlightenment values’ in that regard. When there’s discussion of the possible connection between pornography and sexual violence against women, there’s a lot of throat-clearing about the evils of censorship and a correct understanding of ‘consent’.Wayfarer

    The issues religious nationalism tries to solve is providing morality to the excesses of liberal/libertinism of an increasingly more culturally liberal space. Secular philosophies simply state that besides it being wrong to be directed in personal lives and decisions by the government, that the excesses aren't an issue because the economic well-being of having to work, and live everyday life will be a temper on excess. People who are preoccupied by the daily grind of producing, and the shiny stuff of consuming and maintaining a household will have built in buffers to keep them from going into any hedonistic excess. The rightwing political attempts to control people's behavior and to enact legislation that promotes their view of private matters are illiberal overreaches into other people's lives, and unnecessary as far as any goal of the need for tempering in the modern age. The economic daily living is enough to provide the tempering necessary, if any was even needed at all.

    Against the backdrop of universe which is assumed to be devoid of reason and purpose. The religions and cosmic philosophies of times past at least provided a meaningful sense of the human place in the grand scheme, nowadays sublimated into Elon Musk’s utopian dreams of colonising Mars. (And I wonder how many will benefit from that adventure, even if it happens, which I doubt.)Wayfarer

    So I am interested in your response to my notion of minutia mongering. For the Enlightened cognati, it seems that one can focus on the minutia of difficult subject matter, as if by mining the minutia to the utmost complexity, you are going to "get at something", like the Philosopher's Stone, or TRUTH. But it doesn't. It is just an onion that by the end of it reveals simply that complexity exists in the universe, but not MEANING. Meaning is not going to obtained by engaging in the minutia... As if the topic is more complex, the more TRUE MEANING is actually being rendered. Look at some of the perennial topics on logic, math, and science on just this forum for example:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15353/what-can-we-say-about-logical-formulaspropositions/p1

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15329/do-a-implies-b-and-a-implies-notb-contradict-each-other/p1

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15354/semiotics-and-information-theory

    And many years worth of the like...
  • Tarskian
    658
    Clearly, my answer is to embrace philosophical pessimism as a clear-viewed way of understanding life. Philosophical pessimism is the antidote, not the symptom.schopenhauer1

    Rationality is a tool. Spirituality is another tool. If your only tool is a hammer, then the whole world will start looking like a nail. Rationality is not the tool for discovering the meaning of life. On the contrary, it can only lead to absurdism:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

    Absurdism is the philosophical theory that the universe is irrational and meaningless. Absurdism claims that existence as a whole is absurd. On the practical level, the conflict underlying the absurd is characterized by the individual's struggle to find meaning in a meaningless world. Some arguments in favor of absurdism focus on the human insignificance in the universe, on the role of death, or on the implausibility or irrationality of positing an ultimate purpose. It is traditionally identified as the confrontation of rational man with an irrational world or as the attempt to grasp something based on reasons even though it is beyond the limits of rationality. An important aspect of absurdism is that the absurd is not limited to particular situations but encompasses life as a whole.

    The three responses discussed in the traditional absurdist literature are suicide, religious belief in a higher purpose, and rebellion against the absurd.

    The struggle against the absurd is the fight of the rational man who cannot accept that rationality is not the tool suitable for dealing with the existential question. Rationality won't explain why we are here. Rationality won't tell us why life is worth living.

    Philosophical pessimism is just another name for rebelling and failing to overcome the absurd. It is in fact a victory for the absurd. The only way to find peace, while staying alive, even through moments of despair, is to fully allow spirituality to deal with the existential question.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    Yes. The argument - or fear of deteriorating morality if there is no appeal to a higher Being or the Word of God - has been going on ad nauseam. Unfortunately, deeply affecting e.g. American politics.
    It will be interesting to see how things might change. God seems to be as entrenched as guns.
    Amity

    Indeed, I like your idea of FEAR of deteriorating morality. I'd like to contrast the "appeal to a higher Being or Word of God" to the "appeal to the WORKPLACE and ECONOMY". As that is simply the secular political answer to meaning. Government and the economy are not in the game of MEANING, but nevertheless, secularists in the Humanist/Economics as Religion category might implicitly think this is simply what life's meaning involves. At its core is a glaring USELESS aspect of "all is vanity". That is to say, "doing to do to do to do". You do all the things to make the food to eat to make the food to eat.. Now multiply that by trillions of market interactions, but for the same USELESS (in terms of meaning) circularity. Maintenance, VCR repair guides, the universal gears of a transmission.. Minutia Mongering doesn't replace MEANING.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    Today these secular valued are challenged from multiple directions. On the one hand there is the internal challenge of increasingly polarised societies where the de-humanisation of opponents is increasingly normalised. On the other hand there is the external challenge by international actors who explicitly reject "western" values both on secular (e.g. China) and religious grounds.

    Will the humanist values be strong enough to weather this challenge without the added resilience that a spiritual belief in their ultimate value offers?
    Echarmion

    Good observations and question. If the question is one of meaning, what is the humanist offering on the table? I can definitely tell you though, religion's cosmic schemes are also flawed and can be dismantled, but humanism (the acceptance of the daily technological economy and the hope of science) seems hollow as well. All is vanity. There is a reason I provided Pessimism as the clear-sighted answers to all of this.
  • Amity
    5.2k
    I'm sorry but this 'contrast' doesn't make sense to me. There is nothing simple about secularism as a philosophy. Leaving it here, thanks.schopenhauer1
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    Philosophical pessimism is just another name for rebelling and failing to overcome the absurd. It is in fact a victory for the absurd. The only way to find peace, while staying alive, even through moments of despair, is to fully allow spirituality to deal with the existential question.Tarskian

    You seem to have no justification for your last claim. Religion fails as well. I am not saying religion provides THE meaning. The humanist can claim that their daily grind of economic and consumption activity whilst reading about scientific innovations in Scientific American or the Journals of X, Y, Z, and puttering in the garden and doting on the grandkids, and having sex with the wifey, and participating in community things, provides the meaning for them. I of course would dismantle this along with religion. The first part is to see what is the case, and then the next is to see what to do about it. As far as I see, any optimistic philosophy whether secular ore religious-based is obfuscating what is the case, and therefore should be reevaluated in the light of philosophical pessimism.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    I'm sorry but this 'contrast' doesn't make sense to me. There is nothing simple about secularism as a philosophy. Leaving it here, thanks.schopenhauer1


    Looks like you quoted something I did not say, and then left the room with no real contribution except, "It's complex". Well yes, indeed. And as I said earlier, we do fetishize complexity such that the more complex it is, the more important/significant/meaningful it is, so it makes sense to leave the conversation saying "It's complex!" and then have the sense that you have deemed the situation more meaningful than what I am providing but then not contributing. Demonstrating and not telling sometimes is the case.
  • Tarskian
    658
    You seem to have no justification for your last claim. Religion fails as well. I am not saying religion provides THE meaning. The humanist can claim ...schopenhauer1

    In very difficult circumstances, there is no rational justification for the choice to keep carrying on, instead of throwing in the towel on life itself.

    Either you have a spiritual justification for that, or else you don't have one at all.

    If religion also fails at that point, then your very last line of defense will also have been overrun. The humanist may not even have such last line of defense.

    If what you need, is hope, because you feel desperate and hopeless, then only faith itself, the deep inner conviction that there is always hope, can give you the hope that you need.

    What will save you, is not rationality.

    On the contrary, that line of defense will be gone already. At that point, salvation can only come from a carefully cultivated kind of irrationality, which is spirituality.

    None of the above can be rationally justified, and very much by design so.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    You raise interesting points. For me humans use or exploit any number of fictions and stories to set their values and give direction their choices. Whether it be religion or the Boy Scouts, it seems to me that the flaws inherent in human beings will also be reflected in anything they chose to value.

    Some of the most hedonistic and violent criminals I have worked with were devoutly religious - Muslim and Christian. No value system, no matter how drenched in piety or virtue will necessarily support the common good or bring out the best in folks.

    Everyone seems to want to distract themselves from the fact that life is hard and punctuated by suffering. Amongst all this pain, social cohesion and mutual support is only possible if large swathes of society share the same values. In this era of pluralism and tribalism, stability is increasingly tenuous as the era of big, shared stories (fictions) which used to bond us are going, going, gone.

    Do you see a version of pessimism which can assist us in supporting human beings to promote a more positive culture?
  • BC
    13.6k
    Religionists argue that these restraints are necessary to prevent civilization from descending into decadence and excessive hedonism.schopenhauer1

    VS

    life is hard and punctuated by suffering.Tom Storm

    I have spent years seeking blessed assurance among Christians (and resisting it). Later I sought blessed assurance in secularism. I have spent years reading and thinking about the problems of religion, politics, economy, technology, and so on -- ultimately to no grand resolution. Why not? Per Tom Storm, life is a bitch and then you die.

    Well, sometimes life was a bitch and sometimes it was pretty nice; I haven't died yet, and I've been reasonably happy and content in my old age.

    The thing is, in reality life is hard and it can get worse -- like, nasty, brutish, and short. That's ground level reality. Over this reality we have endeavored to overlay various schemes to make it seem more meaningful; to keep people in line and at work; to justify the rule of whichever elite happens to be running things; to insure that enough of the right people reproduce abundantly, and so on and so forth.

    We expend a great deal of scholarly labor on studying these overlays which cover the bare naked reality, from the ancient ones to yesterday's pronouncements. There is clear evidence that many people are ceasing to find some of the overlays, like religion, as compelling as they once did. Peak religiosity in the United States occurred in 1960, give or take. The hemorrhaging of church membership ensued as millions of members left the churches and never returned.

    I just find a lot of what the more intellectual nattering classes chatter on about to be kind of beside the point. Maybe some of them should "get a life" as the saying goes.

    But not you, schopenhauer1: you have to keep doing what you are doing!

    I read years ago that sexual products and services including production and distribution of pornography generate many times the revenue of, say, sports broadcasting.Wayfarer

    According to Statista, "Market size of the online pornographic and adult content industry in the United States in 2023" was $1.1B. Many 'lurid' claims are made about the porn industry, a lot of which just doesn't sound believable.

    I'm familiar with gay porn, and it seems like there are fewer gay porn sites now than there were 10 or 15 years ago. Monthly subscription prices seem to be lower. Production values are better than they once were, and there are only so many possible acts and positions to portray (though I did see a remarkable innovation recently... but never mind). The market for straight porn should be much, much larger, but I don't have any experience with it.
  • Lionino
    2.7k
    that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized societyschopenhauer1

    Unfortunately, the enlighteners(/ed), in their sheltered naïveté, were almost always the cream of the crop of their societies, having basically no day-to-day contact with the lower classes:

    They realized that the call to "sapere aude" was premature, and required a more educated populus before it would be able to be implemented.Leontiskos

    Alas, when it comes to virtue, the average person is much closer to an orangutan than to Napoleon.

    Pessimism, on the other hand, cuts through this idealism, recognizing that suffering is a constant part of existence.schopenhauer1

    I have no evidence upon which to found this, but I think my life has had much more suffering than the average pessimist's; and yet, somehow, I think life is awesome.

    In fact, it is the people who actually went through great hardships and actual suffering that seem to have the most positive outlook on life. The "always kinda-depressed but not really" type seems to be an existence that occurs almost exclusively in upper middle-class urban settings. There is almost a role-play element to it:
    "Oh no, my crush is sleeping with another guy! There are children in Africa starving! Time to read another Dostoyevsky novel."

    Perhaps there is a neurological element to it. For someone who went through a great crisis, everyday life will often be a high. For those however who have dwelt forever in mundane mediocrity, life is like a constant barely-worse-than-average experience.

    To those types: have you guys ever tried lifting heavy weights regularly?

    Christian nationalism often seeks to impose pro-life policies, ban certain forms of sexual speech in public settings such as libraries and schools, promote Christian ethical teachings in educational curricula, and restrict access to certain websitesschopenhauer1

    Wow, I was skeptical about it before, but now that you put it this way, Christian nationalism sounds awesome.

    You seem to have no justification for your last claim.schopenhauer1

    He never does.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k

    All I can say is you represent the common religionists view of things. What about this theory is compelling for you?

    When I use compelling here, it is in two ways:
    1) How is it personally compelling (easier answer)
    2) How is it compelling based on the facts brought about by academia that religion was the slow evolution of ideas and the splicing together and reworking of various ideas into novel ones, playing out as "tradition" and "innovation" based on the tastes, cultures, and personalities that had a hand in creating these ideas.

    And this leads to 3...

    How can you justify 1 based on 2? And if you cannot, but it becomes a personal thing, how is it just not a coping idea that justifies any number of negative aspects of life (Because GOD WANTS IT, because GOD ALLOWS IT, because GOD IS TEACHING HIS LITTLE SUBJECTS A LESSON, because GOD WANTS TO CONNECT WITH THE LOWER REALMS).. it all sounds like excuses for a divine narcissist/sadist, no? It went from "Worship me correctly and I will bless you with X, Y, Z" and for Christian/Muslims it went to "Worship me correctly and I will not castigate you to eternal torture". Then to the "softer/gentler" God presumed in more Enlightened times is either more remote and redundant (Deism), or pantheism (redefine the universe and consciousness and totality as GOD..Fuzzy Wuzzy WOOO) or "He", is made more Neoplatonic (Medieval/Renaissance Christian mysticism or for Judaism Kabbalah, or for Islam forms of Sufism). Or, he is a New Age God, and he is LOVE, and we are HIM, and rehashing and warmed over Schopenhauer to make his idea of the UNITY and INDIVIDUATION into a fuzzy wuzzy concept and obfuscating the author of such ideas.. An author that they would think is too pessimistic, dark , cynical, instead of thanking the dark philosophy for providing them the tools to rework to their optimistic coping mechanism.
  • Joshs
    5.8k


    Perhaps there is a neurological element to it. For someone who went through a great crisis, everyday life will often be a high. For those however who have dwelt forever in mundane mediocrity, life is like a constant barely-worse-than-average experience.Lionino

    'Every activity as such gives pleasure' -say the physiologists. In what way? Because dammed-up force brought with it a kind of stress and pressure, a state compared with which action is experienced as a liberation? Or in that every activity is an overcoming of difficulties and resistances? And many small resistances, overcome repeatedly, easily, as in a rhythmic dance, bring with them a kind of stimulation of the feeling of power?

    The normal unsatisfaction of our drives, e.g., of hunger, the sexual drive, the drive to move, does not in itself imply something dispiriting; instead, it has a piquing effect on the feeling of life, just as every rhythm of small painful stimuli strengthens that feeling, whatever the pessimists would have us believe. This unsatisfaction, far from blighting life, is life's great stimulus. - Perhaps one could even describe pleasure in general as a rhythm of small unpleasurable stimuli . .(Nietzsche)
  • Tarskian
    658
    How is it compelling based on the facts brought about by academia that religion was the slow evolution of ideas .,.schopenhauer1
    The actual or detailed particulars of spirituality do not matter in this context.

    The only question is: Does his capacity to spirituality help the sufferer of great pains to overcome them? Does it give hope where there would otherwise not be any? In other words, does his capacity to spirituality reinforce the person's survival instinct? Does it contribute to his survival?

    Even soldiers know about this. They may find themselves outnumbered ten to one on the battlefield. At first glance the situation may look hopeless. However, if the soldiers are capable of spirituality, instead of giving up, they may double down and possibly even save the day. On the other hand, a soldier who lacks the capacity for spirituality may in critical moments lack the courage to do what it takes.

    Just like rationality is a tool that contributes in its own way to survival, spirituality is another tool which contributes in another way. Furthermore, just like I have no spiritual considerations to make about rationality, I have no rational considerations to make about spirituality. I just let each tool do its job.

    In my opinion, people who seek to make rational considerations about spirituality ("academia") are mostly wasting their time. If your only tool is a hammer, the whole world will inevitably start looking like a nail.

    Seriously, instead of reading books about swimming in order to get some useless degree in "swimmology", just jump into the swimming pool and start swimming instead. That is a much more effective step in the direction of a future gold medal at the Olympics.
  • Lionino
    2.7k
    Sharp citation, thanks for posting. I see a way in which one could read 'every activity' as really every activity, and thus the pessimist makes his point that despite doing (mundane) things everyday, each with their own little resistances and hardships, he is still unconvinced of life's wonder. But it seems that Nietzsche could not possibly be talking about just any activity. I don't know what the rest of that body of text is, but perhaps he is talking about an activity where one must overcome oneself in a, among many others, moral sense.

    Not only that, but in that citation I also see a strong reply to Nozick's experience machine.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    it seems to me that the flaws inherent in human beings will also be reflected in anything they chose to value.Tom Storm

    :up:

    Some of the most hedonistic and violent criminals I have worked with were devoutly religious - Muslim and Christian. No value system, no matter how drenched in piety or virtue will necessarily support the common good or bring out the best in folks.Tom Storm

    Indeed, they see themselves perhaps in the very things they deem to keep "at bay". It's their own demons they are projecting, perhaps. There's a reason these preachers and politicians are caught with their pants down so many times... And of course nothing more needs to be said about suicide bombers, Jihadis, and AK-47 mystics, cult leaders, and influencers.

    Everyone seems to want to distract themselves from the fact that life is hard and punctuated by suffering. Amongst all this pain, social cohesion and mutual support is only possible if large swathes of society share the same values. In this era of pluralism and tribalism, stability is increasingly tenuous as the era of big, shared stories (fictions) which used to bond us are going, going, gone.

    Do you see a version of pessimism which can assist us in supporting human beings to promote a more positive culture?
    Tom Storm

    Good question. Yes, that's what I am presenting here. If we all SEE "what is the case", then we can perhaps be on the same page as to how to proceed.

    1) We must see "what is the case" first:
    a) This means, seeing the inherent and contingent forms of suffering of life.. The dissatisfied nature of the animal psyche, and the more magnified version of the human psyche with its degrees of freedom, choice, and self-reflection.
    b) This means recognizing that the human is metaphorically "exiled" from the Garden of Eden. Unlike other animals, our degrees of freedom mean that we know we have choices, and deliberation, and we know that we know. Technically, we don't have to do anything, including life itself (suicide) or procreation. And this "seemingness" (at the least) of choice, means we don't necessarily move about unthinkingly by instinct, reflex, but by largely deliberative means. An extra burden.

    2) We must proceed in the world with the recognition of "what is the case".
    a) That means seeing other humans as fellow-sufferers. Imagine the power dynamics of survival. How would this look played out in various institutions of business management for example? In government? In homelife? For friends? For strangers? Follow it through...
    b) Communities of catharsis. It would be easier to vent, complain, as a community. Instead of pretending that the next mountain hike, or the puttering in the garden, or House of God Worship session, or Netflix show is the answer, we understand what is going on here with each dissatisfied response and inherent lack.
    c) Antinatalism.. The ultimate recognition that no one else should go through this, that it is not just/right to unnecessarily harm others, put them through the existence of suffering/harm/what is the case. That you enjoying a mountain hike or Netflix or gardening, or academic journal reading, or going over a paper on symbolic logic, thermodynamics, theoretical physics (this is for the PF crowd of course :)) or going to work and doing that project means someone else is forced into life. Follow the logic of the illogic of procreation and projecting one's own positive projects, whilst creating negative consequences for ANOTHER.

    EDIT: You must understand, if you find the Pessimist framework I lay out as "Wrong", it doesn't matter, because you are ALREADY in the (de facto) optimist framework of the situatedness of the society your were PROCREATED into and are now following, and moving about in. The Pessimist is just saying that we should question THIS framework- the one we are de facto buying into, and to STOP the perpetuation of this framework. So if you are AGAINST the Pessimist framework, you are then for "anti-anti-current framework", which means YOU are advocating FOR something yourself (this framework, and its goodness/rightness/perpetuation, even unto others). So YOU have a position too, even if anti-anti-framework position... Game YES or Game NO, you still have a position, no matter what, about the game.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    In fact, it is the people who actually went through great hardships and actual suffering that seem to have the most positive outlook on life. The "always kinda-depressed but not really" type seems to be an existence that occurs almost exclusively in upper middle-class urban settings. There is almost a role-play element to it:
    "Oh no, my crush is sleeping with another guy! There are children in Africa starving! Time to read another Dostoyevsky novel."

    Perhaps there is a neurological element to it. For someone who went through a great crisis, everyday life will often be a high. For those however who have dwelt forever in mundane mediocrity, life is like a constant barely-worse-than-average experience.

    To those types: have you guys ever tried lifting heavy weights regularly?
    Lionino

    This argument fails on multiple levels, not only in its understanding of suffering but also in its attempt to trivialize the profound and universal nature of human dissatisfaction. The claim that real suffering leads to a more positive outlook, while the so-called "mundane" sufferings of the middle class are mere role-play, is a gross misrepresentation of the human condition.

    To begin with, the notion that suffering is somehow confined to the middle class or that it’s a "middle class thing" is absurd and dangerously misleading. Suffering, in all its forms—whether it's the daily grind of a workday, the relentless dissatisfaction that Schopenhauer so accurately described, or the contingent miseries of life such as disasters, illness, or the loss of loved ones—is universal. It transcends class, culture, and background. Schopenhauer’s philosophy of pessimism lays bare the reality that life is a series of unfulfilled desires, where satisfaction is always fleeting, and suffering is inherent in existence itself. This dissatisfaction, this perpetual striving that leads to nothing but more striving, is not a middle-class affliction—it is the essence of human existence.

    The idea that the working class doesn’t suffer, or suffers less than those in more privileged positions, is not only false but also a harmful stereotype. It perpetuates the myth that only those with the luxury of introspection or relative comfort experience existential angst. This is not the case. The working class faces its own unique forms of suffering—often harsh, relentless, and unforgiving. The daily struggle to make ends meet, the physical toll of labor, the anxiety of job insecurity, and the constant threat of financial ruin are all forms of suffering that are every bit as real and pervasive as any other. To suggest that these are not "real" forms of suffering, or that they somehow lead to a more positive outlook, is to ignore the reality of the human condition and the universality of dissatisfaction.

    Moreover, the pseudo-Nietzschean rhetoric that underpins this argument—a misguided celebration of hardship as something that strengthens and elevates—is a superficial and ultimately flawed understanding of suffering. While Nietzsche’s ideas about the will to power and the overcoming of obstacles can be inspiring, they often get twisted into a macho, tough-guy narrative that ignores the deeper, more pervasive suffering that Schopenhauer so brilliantly articulated. Schopenhauer understood that suffering is not something that can be simply overcome or transformed into strength; it is the fundamental condition of life. The dissatisfaction that arises from unfulfilled desires, the endless cycle of wanting and never truly being satisfied—these are not challenges to be overcome but the very fabric of existence.

    The argument also makes the mistake of trivializing the struggles of those who suffer in less dramatic or visible ways. Just because someone’s suffering doesn’t fit the conventional narrative of hardship doesn’t mean it’s any less real. The "always kinda-depressed" individual, the person who feels a constant sense of unease or dissatisfaction—these experiences are not mere role-play. They are manifestations of the very same universal dissatisfaction that Schopenhauer described. They are evidence of the inherent suffering that comes with being human, regardless of one’s class or circumstances.

    This argument also falls into the trap of anecdotal evidence, using isolated examples to make sweeping generalizations about the nature of suffering. Just because some individuals may emerge from hardship with a positive outlook does not mean this is the universal outcome. In reality, suffering often leaves people scarred, disillusioned, and deeply affected. The idea that suffering is a test to be passed, rather than a fundamental part of existence, is a misunderstanding that Schopenhauer’s philosophy of pessimism powerfully refutes.
  • Leontiskos
    3.2k
    I have no evidence upon which to found this, but I think my life has had much more suffering than the average pessimist's; and yet, somehow, I think life is awesome.

    In fact, it is the people who actually went through great hardships and actual suffering that seem to have the most positive outlook on life. The "always kinda-depressed but not really" type seems to be an existence that occurs almost exclusively in upper middle-class urban settings. There is almost a role-play element to it:
    "Oh no, my crush is sleeping with another guy! There are children in Africa starving! Time to read another Dostoyevsky novel."
    Lionino

    I think this is correct and well put. :up:
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    I think this is correct and well put. :up:Leontiskos

    :down:

    Nah, I actually answered that line of thinking quite handily. ;).
  • Lionino
    2.7k
    not only in its understanding of suffering but also in its attempt to trivialize the profound and universal nature of human dissatisfactionschopenhauer1

    Human dissatisfaction is not trivialised; on the contrary, it is ennobled.

    while the so-called "mundane" sufferings of the middle class are mere role-play, is a gross misrepresentation of the human condition.schopenhauer1

    I never said that the suffering of the middle class is mundane or role-play.

    To begin with, the notion that suffering is somehow confined to the middle class or that it’s a "middle class thing" is absurd and dangerously misleading.schopenhauer1

    I never said suffering is confined to the middle-class. First you imply that I believe the suffering of the middle class is role-play, now that I think only the middle-class suffers. You are inputting two contradictory positions to me.

    The idea that the working class doesn’t suffer, or suffers less than those in more privileged positions, is not only false but also a harmful stereotype.schopenhauer1

    I never said that either.

    Schopenhauer’s philosophy of pessimism lays bare the reality that life is a series of unfulfilled desires, where satisfaction is always fleeting, and suffering is inherent in existence itself.schopenhauer1

    Schopenhauer's pessimism teaches us to accept the reality of suffering in life — one can think of Buddhism's magga. We can take the acceptance of suffering in life one step further and use suffering instead as a weapon.

    they often get twisted into a macho, tough-guy narrative that ignores the deeper,schopenhauer1

    Ok? That is just ad hominem and complaining, not arguing. If the tough guy is thriving in a fulfilling life, does the "deeper, more pervasive suffering" really exist universally or is it a psychological consequence of wallowing in pessimism?

    The argument also makes the mistake of trivializing the struggles of those who suffer in less dramatic or visible ways.schopenhauer1

    Not at al. You are arguing against a strawman. A struggle may be completely private and yet empower the individual immensely.

    these experiences are not mere role-playschopenhauer1

    Good job simply restating your position. Naturally, I think you are wrong, and I think that those people should go lift heavy weights.

    In reality, suffering often leaves people scarred, disillusioned, and deeply affected.schopenhauer1

    Yes, and those strenghten you. Some instances of suffering are of course excessive, and an individual may have all the rights to be depressed, but I don't think that most people lead lives that justify that. And, in fact, promoting that as something to be accepted and not overcome simply demotivates others from taking their open wounds and scarring them by making them think that the wound was too great when in reality it was not.

    The idea that suffering is a test to be passed, rather than a fundamental part of existenceschopenhauer1

    How about a fundamental test of existence?

    Overall, your counterargument (starting from the second paragraph) seems to be that suffering exists across all social classes. Well, obviously. However my post is not about social class, it just used one as an example. Beyond that, there is no counterargument but a restatement of your position by "No, those people are actually sad because life really really sucks" and "Schopenhauer refutes that" — and perhaps he does, but you didn't.

    Nah, I actually answered that line of thinking quite handily. ;).schopenhauer1

    I think you have an established conclusion that you want to achieve no matter what.
  • Leontiskos
    3.2k
    Nah, I actually answered that line of thinking quite handily.schopenhauer1

    's "I never said's" confirm what I took from your response. It's like you were responding to a different post, and this seems to happen a lot in these antinatalism threads.

    ---

    I think you have an established conclusion that you want to achieve no matter what.Lionino

    I think the responses were already in hand before the objections were read.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    ... the profound and universal nature of human dissatisfaction.schopenhauer1
    Even though dukkha cannot be eliminated, it is reduced or mitigated frequently and in many reliable ways daily by many persons. As a daily exercise for cultivating 'well-being', Epicurean "tetrapharmakos" is therapeutically comparable to (even more pragmatic than) the "Four Noble Truths" or the Daodejing & the Zhuangzi. One doesn't need to remain dissatisfied with the prevalence of dissatisfaction; reducing dissatisfaction, however much or temporarily, cultivates degrees of 'satisfaction'. Schopenhaurean pessimism merely amounts to self-fulfilling immiseration (even though it aptly reflects an inescapable fact of (human) existence). As Cioran points out, we suffer from being conscious of life – how we interpret life – and not life itself; likewise, absurdists like Zapffe, Camus & Rosset say as much as well. At least Mainländer wasn't a hypocrite like Schopenhauer and lived out the logical conclusion of his anti-life metaphysics. :smirk:
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    The thing is, in reality life is hard and it can get worse -- like, nasty, brutish, and short. That's ground level reality. Over this reality we have endeavored to overlay various schemes to make it seem more meaningful; to keep people in line and at work; to justify the rule of whichever elite happens to be running things; to insure that enough of the right people reproduce abundantly, and so on and so forth.

    We expend a great deal of scholarly labor on studying these overlays which cover the bare naked reality, from the ancient ones to yesterday's pronouncements. There is clear evidence that many people are ceasing to find some of the overlays, like religion, as compelling as they once did. Peak religiosity in the United States occurred in 1960, give or take. The hemorrhaging of church membership ensued as millions of members left the churches and never returned.

    I just find a lot of what the more intellectual nattering classes chatter on about to be kind of beside the point. Maybe some of them should "get a life" as the saying goes.

    But not you, schopenhauer1: you have to keep doing what you are doing!
    BC

    Excellent observations :D. Add to the nattering classes the Nietazscheans. There is a strand of optimism that thinks like this:
    24687694cd3945184a1cef3dd013fea55b3920ea.png
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    I think you have an established conclusion that you want to achieve no matter what.Lionino

    We are all established conclusions because we had no say in it brotha ;). The choice to not even have to exit is not a choice. As Cioran put it:
    The rejection of birth is nothing but the nostalgia for this time before time. — E.M. Cioran

    I never said suffering is confined to the middle-class. First you imply that I believe the suffering of the middle class is role-play, now that I think only the middle-class suffers. You are inputting two contradictory positions to me.Lionino

    By this I mean, that the middle class "faux suffers". Sorry I should be more specific on how you are misguided.

    I never said that either.Lionino

    You imply that the non-upper...blah blah class suffers a certain way implying other classes don't (not even that they are incapable, just "don't" suffer exisitential ways, and that suffering is needed in the Nietzschean doesn't kill me make me stronger way and that other classes "really" suffer. :down:

    Schopenhauer's pessimism teaches us to accept the reality of suffering in life — one can think of Buddhism's magga. We can take the acceptance of suffering in life one step further and use suffering instead as a weapon.Lionino

    It's actually the opposite of acceptance. It is not TOAISM or NIETZSCHEANISM or STOICISM which are philosophy of acceptance. It is, similar to Buddhism (so you got that right at least), a philosophy of DENIAL (of the Will). I have many posts on that distinction actually if you want me to direct you to better thinking on the matter.

    Not at al. You are arguing against a strawman. A struggle may be completely private and yet empower the individual immensely.Lionino

    Or sometimes struggle is just a struggle, and is negative. It's not the outcome even, but that we struggle. But SADISM is saying that suffering is necessary for happiness, and you should LIKE IT because ACCEPTANCE. Coping mechanisms. Have your stories.. See Zapffe.

    Good job simply restating your position. Naturally, I think you are wrong, and I think that those people should go lift heavy weights.Lionino

    Right. Glad to know you solved the problems of suffering with the gym, brah. Talk about middle class solutions.

    24687694cd3945184a1cef3dd013fea55b3920ea.png

    Overall, your counterargument (starting from the second paragraph) seems to be that suffering exists across all social classes. Well, obviously. However my post is not about social class, it just used one as an example. Beyond that, there is no counterargument but a restatement of your position by "No, those people are actually sad because life really really sucks" and "Schopenhauer refutes that" — and perhaps he does, but you didn't.Lionino

    I defer to someone who thought about suffering. I explained the dissatisfaction inherent that is his main point. I don't need much more than that. I can explain other things but that is the core point- we are dissatisfied creatures, humans all the more for our self-reflective/deliberative capacities that compound the dissatisfaction.

    but I don't think that most people lead lives that justify that.Lionino

    Ah yes, YOU are the arbiter of what people should be feeling about life.
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