In Western countries… — schopenhauer1

On the other hand, humanists, existentialists, and secularists who hold notions of "virtue" or "civic virtue" argue that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society. — schopenhauer1

They believe that reason, individual rights, and scientific inquiry provide a framework for a meaningful and virtuous life without the need for religious dogma. — schopenhauer1

In Western countries, Christian nationalism often seeks to impose pro-life policies, ban certain forms of sexual speech in public settings such as libraries and schools, promote Christian ethical teachings in educational curricula, and restrict access to certain websites. Similarly, Islamic nationalism enforces these and many more restrictions, often with even stricter adherence to religious doctrines.

Religionists argue that these restraints are necessary to prevent civilization from descending into decadence and excessive hedonism, where higher values are discarded in favor of simple pleasures. They believe that without these moral guidelines, society would lose its ethical foundation and succumb to chaos. — schopenhauer1

On the other hand, humanists, existentialists, and secularists who hold notions of "virtue" or "civic virtue" argue that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society.
— schopenhauer1

I read years ago that sexual products and services including production and distribution of pornography generate many times the revenue of, say, sports broadcasting. I see not a lot of comment from those espousing ‘enlightenment values’ in that regard.

When there’s discussion of the possible connection between pornography and sexual violence against women, there’s a lot of throat-clearing about the evils of censorship and a correct understanding of ‘consent’. — Wayfarer

On the other hand, humanists, existentialists, and secularists who hold notions of "virtue" or "civic virtue" argue that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society. They believe that reason, individual rights, and scientific inquiry provide a framework for a meaningful and virtuous life without the need for religious dogma. — schopenhauer1

being part of a larger cosmic scheme — schopenhauer1

Because of the vagaries of life, people may end up in need of faith and hope. The ability to keep going will then have to come from a spiritual source. What mere rationality can bring to the table, will at that point be exhausted already. In those circumstances, people who believe in religion, will be at an advantage. They will be able to find motivation beyond what seems rationally possible. — Tarskian

Such as…? It sounds like the agenda of the ‘radical right’ in the USA, but if my intuition is correct, they’re going to get a shellacking in the forthcoming elections. — Wayfarer

White evangelicals in the 1970s didn’t initially care about abortion. They organized to defend racial segregation in evangelical institutions — and only seized on banning abortion because it was more palatable than their real goal. — The Religious Right and the Abortion Myth

I read years ago that sexual products and services including production and distribution of pornography generate many times the revenue of, say, sports broadcasting. I see not a lot of comment from those espousing ‘enlightenment values’ in that regard. When there’s discussion of the possible connection between pornography and sexual violence against women, there’s a lot of throat-clearing about the evils of censorship and a correct understanding of ‘consent’. — Wayfarer

Against the backdrop of universe which is assumed to be devoid of reason and purpose. The religions and cosmic philosophies of times past at least provided a meaningful sense of the human place in the grand scheme, nowadays sublimated into Elon Musk’s utopian dreams of colonising Mars. (And I wonder how many will benefit from that adventure, even if it happens, which I doubt.) — Wayfarer

Clearly, my answer is to embrace philosophical pessimism as a clear-viewed way of understanding life. Philosophical pessimism is the antidote, not the symptom. — schopenhauer1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

Absurdism is the philosophical theory that the universe is irrational and meaningless. Absurdism claims that existence as a whole is absurd. On the practical level, the conflict underlying the absurd is characterized by the individual's struggle to find meaning in a meaningless world. Some arguments in favor of absurdism focus on the human insignificance in the universe, on the role of death, or on the implausibility or irrationality of positing an ultimate purpose. It is traditionally identified as the confrontation of rational man with an irrational world or as the attempt to grasp something based on reasons even though it is beyond the limits of rationality. An important aspect of absurdism is that the absurd is not limited to particular situations but encompasses life as a whole.

The three responses discussed in the traditional absurdist literature are suicide, religious belief in a higher purpose, and rebellion against the absurd.

Yes. The argument - or fear of deteriorating morality if there is no appeal to a higher Being or the Word of God - has been going on ad nauseam. Unfortunately, deeply affecting e.g. American politics.
It will be interesting to see how things might change. God seems to be as entrenched as guns. — Amity

Today these secular valued are challenged from multiple directions. On the one hand there is the internal challenge of increasingly polarised societies where the de-humanisation of opponents is increasingly normalised. On the other hand there is the external challenge by international actors who explicitly reject "western" values both on secular (e.g. China) and religious grounds.

Will the humanist values be strong enough to weather this challenge without the added resilience that a spiritual belief in their ultimate value offers? — Echarmion

I'm sorry but this 'contrast' doesn't make sense to me. There is nothing simple about secularism as a philosophy. Leaving it here, thanks. — schopenhauer1

Philosophical pessimism is just another name for rebelling and failing to overcome the absurd. It is in fact a victory for the absurd. The only way to find peace, while staying alive, even through moments of despair, is to fully allow spirituality to deal with the existential question. — Tarskian

I'm sorry but this 'contrast' doesn't make sense to me. There is nothing simple about secularism as a philosophy. Leaving it here, thanks. — schopenhauer1

You seem to have no justification for your last claim. Religion fails as well. I am not saying religion provides THE meaning. The humanist can claim ... — schopenhauer1

Religionists argue that these restraints are necessary to prevent civilization from descending into decadence and excessive hedonism. — schopenhauer1

life is hard and punctuated by suffering. — Tom Storm

I read years ago that sexual products and services including production and distribution of pornography generate many times the revenue of, say, sports broadcasting. — Wayfarer

that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society — schopenhauer1

They realized that the call to "sapere aude" was premature, and required a more educated populus before it would be able to be implemented. — Leontiskos

Pessimism, on the other hand, cuts through this idealism, recognizing that suffering is a constant part of existence. — schopenhauer1

Christian nationalism often seeks to impose pro-life policies, ban certain forms of sexual speech in public settings such as libraries and schools, promote Christian ethical teachings in educational curricula, and restrict access to certain websites — schopenhauer1

You seem to have no justification for your last claim. — schopenhauer1

Perhaps there is a neurological element to it. For someone who went through a great crisis, everyday life will often be a high. For those however who have dwelt forever in mundane mediocrity, life is like a constant barely-worse-than-average experience. — Lionino

'Every activity as such gives pleasure' -say the physiologists. In what way? Because dammed-up force brought with it a kind of stress and pressure, a state compared with which action is experienced as a liberation? Or in that every activity is an overcoming of difficulties and resistances? And many small resistances, overcome repeatedly, easily, as in a rhythmic dance, bring with them a kind of stimulation of the feeling of power?

The normal unsatisfaction of our drives, e.g., of hunger, the sexual drive, the drive to move, does not in itself imply something dispiriting; instead, it has a piquing effect on the feeling of life, just as every rhythm of small painful stimuli strengthens that feeling, whatever the pessimists would have us believe. This unsatisfaction, far from blighting life, is life's great stimulus. - Perhaps one could even describe pleasure in general as a rhythm of small unpleasurable stimuli . .(Nietzsche)

How is it compelling based on the facts brought about by academia that religion was the slow evolution of ideas .,. — schopenhauer1

it seems to me that the flaws inherent in human beings will also be reflected in anything they chose to value. — Tom Storm

Some of the most hedonistic and violent criminals I have worked with were devoutly religious - Muslim and Christian. No value system, no matter how drenched in piety or virtue will necessarily support the common good or bring out the best in folks. — Tom Storm

Everyone seems to want to distract themselves from the fact that life is hard and punctuated by suffering. Amongst all this pain, social cohesion and mutual support is only possible if large swathes of society share the same values. In this era of pluralism and tribalism, stability is increasingly tenuous as the era of big, shared stories (fictions) which used to bond us are going, going, gone.

Do you see a version of pessimism which can assist us in supporting human beings to promote a more positive culture? — Tom Storm

In fact, it is the people who actually went through great hardships and actual suffering that seem to have the most positive outlook on life. The "always kinda-depressed but not really" type seems to be an existence that occurs almost exclusively in upper middle-class urban settings. There is almost a role-play element to it:
"Oh no, my crush is sleeping with another guy! There are children in Africa starving! Time to read another Dostoyevsky novel."

Perhaps there is a neurological element to it. For someone who went through a great crisis, everyday life will often be a high. For those however who have dwelt forever in mundane mediocrity, life is like a constant barely-worse-than-average experience.

To those types: have you guys ever tried lifting heavy weights regularly? — Lionino

I have no evidence upon which to found this, but I think my life has had much more suffering than the average pessimist's; and yet, somehow, I think life is awesome.

In fact, it is the people who actually went through great hardships and actual suffering that seem to have the most positive outlook on life. The "always kinda-depressed but not really" type seems to be an existence that occurs almost exclusively in upper middle-class urban settings. There is almost a role-play element to it:
"Oh no, my crush is sleeping with another guy! There are children in Africa starving! Time to read another Dostoyevsky novel." — Lionino

I think this is correct and well put. :up: — Leontiskos

not only in its understanding of suffering but also in its attempt to trivialize the profound and universal nature of human dissatisfaction — schopenhauer1

while the so-called "mundane" sufferings of the middle class are mere role-play, is a gross misrepresentation of the human condition. — schopenhauer1

To begin with, the notion that suffering is somehow confined to the middle class or that it’s a "middle class thing" is absurd and dangerously misleading. — schopenhauer1

The idea that the working class doesn’t suffer, or suffers less than those in more privileged positions, is not only false but also a harmful stereotype. — schopenhauer1

Schopenhauer’s philosophy of pessimism lays bare the reality that life is a series of unfulfilled desires, where satisfaction is always fleeting, and suffering is inherent in existence itself. — schopenhauer1

they often get twisted into a macho, tough-guy narrative that ignores the deeper, — schopenhauer1

The argument also makes the mistake of trivializing the struggles of those who suffer in less dramatic or visible ways. — schopenhauer1

these experiences are not mere role-play — schopenhauer1

In reality, suffering often leaves people scarred, disillusioned, and deeply affected. — schopenhauer1

The idea that suffering is a test to be passed, rather than a fundamental part of existence — schopenhauer1

Nah, I actually answered that line of thinking quite handily. ;). — schopenhauer1

Nah, I actually answered that line of thinking quite handily. — schopenhauer1

I think you have an established conclusion that you want to achieve no matter what. — Lionino

... the profound and universal nature of human dissatisfaction. — schopenhauer1

The thing is, in reality life is hard and it can get worse -- like, nasty, brutish, and short. That's ground level reality. Over this reality we have endeavored to overlay various schemes to make it seem more meaningful; to keep people in line and at work; to justify the rule of whichever elite happens to be running things; to insure that enough of the right people reproduce abundantly, and so on and so forth.

We expend a great deal of scholarly labor on studying these overlays which cover the bare naked reality, from the ancient ones to yesterday's pronouncements. There is clear evidence that many people are ceasing to find some of the overlays, like religion, as compelling as they once did. Peak religiosity in the United States occurred in 1960, give or take. The hemorrhaging of church membership ensued as millions of members left the churches and never returned.

I just find a lot of what the more intellectual nattering classes chatter on about to be kind of beside the point. Maybe some of them should "get a life" as the saying goes.

But not you, schopenhauer1: you have to keep doing what you are doing! — BC

I think you have an established conclusion that you want to achieve no matter what. — Lionino

The rejection of birth is nothing but the nostalgia for this time before time. — E.M. Cioran

I never said suffering is confined to the middle-class. First you imply that I believe the suffering of the middle class is role-play, now that I think only the middle-class suffers. You are inputting two contradictory positions to me. — Lionino

I never said that either. — Lionino

Schopenhauer's pessimism teaches us to accept the reality of suffering in life — one can think of Buddhism's magga. We can take the acceptance of suffering in life one step further and use suffering instead as a weapon. — Lionino

Not at al. You are arguing against a strawman. A struggle may be completely private and yet empower the individual immensely. — Lionino

Good job simply restating your position. Naturally, I think you are wrong, and I think that those people should go lift heavy weights. — Lionino

Overall, your counterargument (starting from the second paragraph) seems to be that suffering exists across all social classes. Well, obviously. However my post is not about social class, it just used one as an example. Beyond that, there is no counterargument but a restatement of your position by "No, those people are actually sad because life really really sucks" and "Schopenhauer refutes that" — and perhaps he does, but you didn't. — Lionino

but I don't think that most people lead lives that justify that. — Lionino