What about all the lives that aren't born? What about all the potential lives floating around within our groins that may provide consent to be born but never are. There are far more lives that are never born than those that are. — Harry Hindu
As has been said it is possible our "soul" exists before this body. — Andrew4Handel
Or you could go further afield and talk in a similar way about apples, dogs, or lampposts, as I have done. — Sapientia
It would make just as much sense to say, "All of these potential people that we're not creating might be really upset that we didn't create them, so we'd better try to have as many kids as possible." — Terrapin Station
Absence of consent, can be, and in many cases is, a non-factor — Sapientia
There's no one to think for prior to that person existing. You can't think for someone who doesn't exist yet. — Terrapin Station
There is no objectivity in something like "life is suffering." There is no objectivity in ethics or valuations. — Terrapin Station
So, nonexistence, IF life is suffering, is morally preferable — TheMadFool
there is something inherently wrong, morally speaking, in engaging another person without consent, — TheMadFool
Absence of consent, can be, and in many cases is, a non-factor — Sapientia
I don't think so. Consent is key in any interaction between two/more people. Ask any court, anywhere. — TheMadFool
I accept the concept of mutually beneficial relationships. There's absolutely nothing morally wrong with establishing them but, that's a BIG but, we must remember that they're, in essence, contracts/agreements. As such they require the contracting parties to be capable of consent because it is essential that both parties see the benefits in the relationship. No side has the right to think for the other, especially in absentia. The moment this occurs, the mutually beneficial nature of the relationship ceases. — TheMadFool
All possibilities should be taken into account if you are to be a genuine skeptic. — John
Are flying pigs really being argued as being logically equivalent to unborn children? Jesus Christ... — Heister Eggcart
The far fetched possibilities that have nothing going for them aren't worthy of serious consideration, in my view. — Sapientia
Why do you say the scenario of souls existing prior to birth is "far-fetched"? Just because not many people believe it? (Actually countless millions of Hindus believe it). — John
Or is it just because it doesn't fit into your predetermined worldview? — John
Do you have an actual argument against the idea. If not and it is just your own subjective opinion; why should others be interested in hearing about that? — John
Are you here to learn and maybe change your thinking and even your way of thinking or is this just a chat room for you where you get to mouth off and enjoy the sound of your own voice? — John
That's what you have to argue for in order for what you say to make any sense. — Thorongil
What I am saying makes sense and is factual. We didn't consent to be born. — Andrew4Handel
As has been said it is possible our "soul" exists before this body. — Andrew4Handel
It is true that a child may endorse life but the problem is the same process that created them creates people who don't endorse life. So I might consent to sex and another person may not, the fact that some people may consent to something doesn't justify inflicting it on all, but life is like that. — Andrew4Handel
In itself, yes. But how do you think you can resolve the dilemma of either implying something ethically controversial which makes no sense or saying something trivial and uncontroversial? — Sapientia
You acknowledge that it is possible that souls exist prior to birth. What if all those souls born into flesh do consent? It's true that later they may come to either endorse life or not. But if in their pre-life state they saw the greater picture, their later failure to endorse life might merely be the result of not being in their right minds. — John
Of course there's a reason for it, which I could try to put into words. Constructing a good argument tends to take time and hard work, and I'm a bit of a perfectionist. So maybe I'll get back to you on that, and maybe in a separate discussion, — Sapientia
so as not be too off topic.
There is no evidence for this scenario so it cannot be a coherent excuse for creating a child. — Andrew4Handel
If you want to make a claim that is a logically correct conclusion of OP's thoughts — BlueBanana
I pointed out that you can't force your parents to create you. There is no evidence of people being told by an unborn spirit to procreate (I've heard of). — Andrew4Handel
I have not experienced a whisper in my mind encouraging me to create children. Also it is unnecessary for a biological account of reproduction.
As I say it is an arrangement dependent on the parents having sex so the key responsibility falls on them. If it was true it would imply some consent but how could you prove it?
Anyone can make up an unfalsifiable theory and brandish it about and.. you have no evidence I was a pre existing soul that wanted this. Why would I or anyone want this?
My experience was that I was lied to from birth about religion and parental authority so I was not in the position to give consent (forced to go to church up to 5 times a week) It was only as a culmination of traumatic experiences that I was able to break away from the indoctrination as a older teenager.
Why would I chose to be lied to so that i was only able to honestly examine existence when I was in my late teens?
Also I do not believe any one would chose a bad life even if they were a preexisting spirit entering the foetus somehow. Unless you have a further invalidate belief that preexisting spirits know the future.
Therefore If a spirit did enter the womb to be born the parents is still infringing it by exposing it to harm that it didn't expect.
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