It's not valid because, thinking along these lines, nothing mental can be objective, even philosophy. It also renders your arguments self-defeating. — TheMadFool
Here's the thing: Relationships not based on consent are, essentially, a last resort. — TheMadFool
That is to say, on the ladder of morality it occupies the lowest rung. Doesn't this speak something? Such non-consensual pacts are hovering on the border between what is moral and what is immoral. — TheMadFool
but if they intend to have a child they consent to take what is given. — John
I don't see how intending to do something is an act of consent. — Andrew4Handel
I can see no scenario where someone from a prelife realm could force them self on a parent. (especially now with the prevalence of contraceptives and abortion.) — Andrew4Handel
Of course it is. If you decide to do something your are permitting it to happen to you — John
Well, actually there are further possibilities: that souls pre-exist bodily life and are forced to be born. But if that is the case then we exist in a diabolical universe; an inherently evil universe. — John
If you decide to take a job, for example, then whatever happens to in that job is only partially under your control. — John
Do you acknowledge that your thought that life is not worth living is nothing more than just that: your thought, your subjective opinion? — John
You need to realize that you are just one person; other people's lives are different from yours, and you have no rational warrant to pronounce on their value or lack of it. — John
The same can be said to you. — Andrew4Handel
I don't presume to speak for others; whereas you do, that is the difference. What you say about putting a chemical in water to cause infertility just shows me that you are another thoughtless idiot that wishes to dogmatically impose their views on everyone else. If you were to do what you suggest it would be an unspeakable criminal act. — John
Or, looking at it evolutionarily, natural-selection makes it so that people who are born have an inclination toward life. Part of what made you was natural selection's influence that made you inclined toward life.
And that was encoded in the genes from which yours were going to be chosen,, even before your own genes were finally determined by your conception. — Michael Ossipoff
No. It's misleading to call it a last resort if the other options were never really options at all. — Sapientia
The problem for the unborn is you have no idea what their preferences will be so you can't create a person for their own benefit. — Andrew4Handel
If there is a bush on fire you could pour water on it to put the fire out.
Or you could ignore it. Or you could add fuel to the fire.
I don't see an excuse for adding fuel to the fire.
The fact that no one chose to come here (exist) does not mean that you can justify continuing creating people. You didn't start the fire but you can try and put it out. — Andrew4Handel
Having children also creates more human pleasure, more human creativity and growth. I think you need to acknowledge that your view that life is predominately suffering is an irrational one, probably based on your own negative experiences and perception of your own suffering. You need to realize that you are just one person; other people's lives are different from yours, and you have no rational warrant to pronounce on their value or lack of it. — John
Lack of consent is a source of unhappiness in itself. — Andrew4Handel
If there is one person drowning in lake and twenty people enjoying a picnic on the shore who do you pay attention to?
[...]
If I discovered a chemical that when put in the water would cause mass infertility I would have no qualms about doing so. — Andrew4Handel
For one thing, of course life isn't all suffering. It's a combination of alternate good things and bad things. It's like a gamble, except that nearly everyone wins sometimes, often paying a price in suffering and hardship.
So, what you're imposing on your offspring isn't unadulterated misery. Let's be clear about that. It's a gamble, an exciting and risky game. A dangerous adventure. That isn't an unmitigated bad thing. — Michael Ossipoff
You're as crazy as the person who'd have no qualms about joining those people enjoying the picnic instead of trying to help the drowning person. — Sapientia
Exactly, you have no choice - that's the definition of ''last resort''. — TheMadFool
Consider the hypothetical that you have the choice to consult the other party's willingness to participate in a pact. It would be wrong then to think for the other party. But...you would do it, as a last resort. That's an admirable act, sometimes, to risk being wrong but, it's a sin. — TheMadFool
Another ludicrous analogy. — Sapientia
He has an agenda and is cherry picking, like you — Sapientia
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