• Gnomon
    3.9k
    Form is the logical structure of an object of scrutiny, as distinguished from its material substance. — Gnomon
    Good one; so, form precedes the substance of it?
    PoeticUniverse
    Yes. If you imagine Platonic Form as an infinite pool of potential, our substantial scrutinized reality is a definite drop dredged-up from the boundless abyss of untapped possibility. I'm sure you could write a poem riffing on that theme. :smile:
  • punos
    685
    What would you expect to happen if you could exorcise a particle of its soul? :wink:Gnomon

    I do not believe it can be done. If I had an electron in my right hand and were to extract the rest energy of that electron with my left hand, the electron would disappear from my right hand, and then when i look in my left hand, i would find an identical electron. You see, it appears to me that energy can exist without taking the form of a particle, but a particle cannot exist without the energy that forms it. This leads me to conclude that whatever energy is, it is a more fundamental entity than the form of the particle. It appears to be some kind of disembodied quality that is not a property of particles, but a property of space from which particles emerge. :sparkle:

    Does that make any sense?
  • 180 Proof
    15.7k
    So "space" is "disembodied" (i.e. non-physical)? What about gravity (re: GR)? :chin:

    [energy is] a property of space from which particles emerge
    Yes, afaik, makes sense.
  • punos
    685
    So "space" is "disembodied" (i.e. non-physical)? What about gravity (re: GR)? :chin:

    [energy is] a property of space from which particles emerge

    Yes, afaik, makes sense.
    180 Proof

    You could say that "space" is the quality of "disembodiment", and particles have the quality or property of "embodiment".

    This is just a conceptual model, but i conceptualize time and space as a circle with a point at its center. The center point represents time, while the circumference represents space. We exist on the circumference. The body of space is the circumference itself, and particles are disturbances at points along this circumference. Time is directly connected to every point on the circumference by the radius. I find this to be a useful construction for thinking about this subject. There are other models too that can work just as well.
  • punos
    685
    What about gravity (re: GR)?180 Proof

    I have an idea about how gravity might work, but i'm not ready to share it yet. One thing i can say is that i believe gravity emerges from dark energy. I also have an idea about what dark energy is and how it works, but it's still an incomplete concept. I'm sure i'll share it someday.
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    I'm sure you could write a poem riffing on that theme.Gnomon

    For life, DNA is the form;
    For particles, quantum fields are the form.
  • Harry Hindu
    5.2k
    The basic problem of process philosophy is to explain why processes, activities, appear to us as substantial objects.Metaphysician Undercover

    A solution has already been proposed. Is relativity a substantial object or a relation? Is relativity real? Does it exist? If so, how?

    Your brain processes information about the world at a particular rate, or frequency, RELATIVE to the rate/frequency of the other processes you perceive. This will have an effect on how you perceive the other processes with the relatively slower processes appearing as substantial, solid, static objects. Procedural feedback loops will also appear as substantial, solid, static objects. Relatively faster change will appear as blurs, or actual processes, like an explosion.
  • Gnomon
    3.9k
    The basic problem of process philosophy is to explain why processes, activities, appear to us as substantial objects. This problem forces Whitehead to employ mysterious concepts like concrescence, and prehension, which generally imply a form of panpsychism.Metaphysician Undercover
    For philosophers, it's not a problem, because they don't deal with physical "how?" questions. It is a problem for materialists, because there is a matterless gap between substantial brain and functional Mind. Mind is a process, not a thing --- unless like Descartes you point to the pineal gland as the mind generator. The "why" question is for Psychology to explain, in terms of Representation (ideas).

    For most modern philosophers, the Mind/Process does not appear to be a substantial object. For example, the function of the Liver is to process blood into nutrients, and to filter-out toxins. The filtering process can be tracked down to subatomic particles, at which point the process becomes "mysterious". Yet no ghostly pan-filtering is postulated. Ironically, the verb process has a noun name : detoxification.

    Whitehead was "forced" to adopt the physical notion of Concrescence (growing together) to metaphorically explain how sub-atomic wave-particles can be perceived as "substantial objects". As a philosopher, it's not his job to map the mechanical steps between probabilistic particles (lacking surfaces and substance) and macro-scale tangible objects. Even quantum scientists are forced to punt on such questions, or resort to metaphors. :smile:


    This focus on concrete modes of relatedness is essential because an actual occasion is itself a coming into being of the concrete. The nature of this “concrescence,” using Whitehead’s term, is a matter of the occasion’s creatively internalizing its relatedness to the rest of the world by feeling that world, and in turn uniquely expressing its concreteness through its extensive connectedness with that world. Thus an electron in a field of forces “feels” the electrical charges acting upon it, and translates this “experience” into its own electronic modes of concreteness. Only later do we schematize these relations with the abstract algebraic and geometrical forms of physical science. For the electron, the interaction is irreducibly concrete.
    https://iep.utm.edu/whitehead/
    Note --- Sounds like it might make sense to someone. But for me, I'll just call it a metaphor.
  • Gnomon
    3.9k
    I do not believe it can be done. . . . . You see, it appears to me that energy can exist without taking the form of a particle, but a particle cannot exist without the energy that forms it. This leads me to conclude that whatever energy is, it is a more fundamental entity than the form of the particle. It appears to be some kind of disembodied quality that is not a property of particles, but a property of space from which particles emerge. :sparkle:
    Does that make any sense?
    punos
    Maybe. The Energy of an electron is described as "charge". Which is a metaphor for filling a wagon with a load of wood, produce, etc. That "disembodied quality", its causal value or voltage, is imagined as an inherent property of the particle, but where does the causal charge come from? One notion is that the energy "load" is extracted (particleized) from the potential of empty space (quantum field). But the response below says otherwise. Ironically, fundamental physics, dealing with invisible stuff, is mostly described in mathematical symbols or philosophical metaphors. It's all over my head, literally and figuratively. :smile:


    An electron does not gain its charge from "empty space"; it inherently carries a negative charge as a fundamental property of its existence, regardless of the surrounding environment, including empty space.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=electron+charge+from+empty+space
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    If you imagine Platonic Form as an infinite pool of potential, our substantial scrutinized reality is a definite drop dredged-up from the boundless abyss of untapped possibility.Gnomon

    Since the Eternal has no input point,
    It’s Everything, linear or all-at-once.


    The Eternal knows no point where it begins,
    No gateway through which any design slips in;
    Thus must it be the All-in-All that flows
    As line by line or where all lines are twins.

    What has no start must stretch through every way,
    Through linear paths where moments mark their sway,
    Or simultaneous in timeless dance—
    For how else could the Boundless choose to play?

    When entry points are nowhere to be found,
    All possibilities must there abound:
    As flowing stream, the instant's flash of light,
    The sequence, or the circle's endless round.

    Without a threshold where its being starts,
    The Eternal must embrace all cosmic parts—
    As time's long river flowing ever on,
    Or instant's unity where difference parts.

    Imagine Form as boundless ocean deep,
    Where all potential does its secrets keep;
    Our measured world, a single droplet drawn
    From depths where countless possibilities sleep.

    This scrutinized reality we know
    Is but one pattern that the Forms bestow—
    A crystal lifted from infinite seas
    Of what could be, what might yet come to flow.

    The abyss of Forms holds every dream untold,
    Each possible shape that matter might unfold;
    While we perceive one manifestation clear,
    The endless pool holds mysteries yet to mold.

    From vastness of the possible sublime,
    We dredge one moment's substance out of time;
    Yet still beneath our certainties there swirls
    The infinite from which all forms may climb.
  • punos
    685
    That "disembodied quality", its causal value or voltage, is imagined as an inherent property of the particle, but where does the causal charge come from?Gnomon

    Well, the way i currently see it, charge can be understood as a manifestation of broken symmetry in space. This perspective is based on the idea that particles like electrons and positrons are not isolated entities but rather parts of a symmetric whole that has been separated by some measure.

    When an electron is created, it is always accompanied by the creation of a positron. Similarly, an electron can only be "destroyed" through interaction with a positron, and vice versa. This suggests to me that an underlying symmetry, when broken by temporal decay, produces two particles that represent the energetic difference between the asymmetric state of the particle and its original symmetric state. Each particle thus carries the complementary charge energy that completes its antipair.

    Charge can thus be seen as an accounting mechanism by which the universe keeps track of local symmetry breaks, enabling particles to "know" where to go and which particles to fuse with to restore symmetry. The difference between the symmetric and asymmetric states forms the basis of electromagnetic energy. Electromagnetism appears to serve the goal of bringing opposite charges together to restore symmetry, though perfect restoration is never fully achieved throughout.

    About symmetry:
    From our human perspective, this symmetry appears as nothing until it is broken. Perceiving this symmetry, at least from a physical standpoint, is impossible. No empirical method whatsoever can ever ascertain it.

    A simple way to conceptualize this is by imagining a perfectly black piece of paper against a perfectly black background: the paper is present but imperceptible, appearing as though it doesn’t exist at all. Coloring the paper a different color, such as white (an inversion), immediately makes it noticeable, as if it suddenly came into existence (an illusion). The difference in color can be thought of as representing the energy of the paper in relation to the background. This is not a perfect analogy, but it serves to illustrate the nature of what appears to exist as opposed to what appears to not exist.
  • punos
    685

    I forgot to mention that this underlying symmetry seems to philosophically resemble the neutral substance proposed in neutral monism. I propose that this is one of the resonant connection points between physics and metaphysics, particularly with some version of neutral monism.

    Perhaps a suitable name for this kind of monism could be "Neutral Quantum Process Monism" (NQPM). :smile:
  • Gnomon
    3.9k
    Since the Eternal has no input point,
    It’s Everything, linear or all-at-once.
    PoeticUniverse
    Yes. Infinite, unbounded, undefined Potential is Everything, Everywhere, All-at-once. Simply BEING. But our matter-bound minds can only imagine All-Possibilities as things : static or linear or flowing.
    BEING (G*D) is necessary, since we are here to think about it. Non-being is self-negating. :grin:
  • Gnomon
    3.9k
    This perspective is based on the idea that particles like electrons and positrons are not isolated entities but rather parts of a symmetric whole that has been separated by some measure.punos
    So, when the neutral potential electron is unplugged from the whole universal system it splits into a positive & negative charge ; pro & anti-matter??? Who or what does the separating? Is the separation physical or conceptual??? How does this plugging & unplugging fit into Whitehead's Process Philosophy?

    I tend to take the imaginary cosmic Whole for granted. like G*D, because my personal experience is limited to parts --- stars, planets, particles --- that I can envision plugging-together to form a Whole Cosmos. Symmetry means "to measure together". And a measurement is a mental operation. So, it's all an idea in a mind, hence Idealism? :smile:

    PS___Please pardon the philosophical rambling. Maybe that's what happens when you un-plug from the system : you become an isolated part that is attracted to your counter-part, and ultimately to the super-symmetric Whole. But the journey back to the whole is what we call Life? :joke:
  • Gnomon
    3.9k
    I forgot to mention that this underlying symmetry seems to philosophically resemble the neutral substance proposed in neutral monism. I propose that this is one of the resonant connection points between physics and metaphysics, particularly with some version of neutral monism.
    Perhaps a suitable name for this kind of monism could be "Neutral Quantum Process Monism" (NQPM).
    punos
    I had never heard of "Neutral Monism", so I Googled it. If the Monistic Entity (Singularity?) is "neither physical nor mental", what is it? Spiritual ; Essence ; Substance? Is the "Neutral Entity" G*D?

    Is "Neutral Quantum Process Monism" an extant philosophical concept, or did you just make it up for this thread? Sometimes it's hard to tell if Google AI is just riffing on a theme, or finds information that is out there in the Net. The overview just refers back to "Neutral Monism". But the AI definition sounds like a Whiteheadian notion.

    Again, how would you plug this neutral notion back into Process Philosophy or Process Theology?

    Note : a Monistic Materialism adherent would say "you lost me at Metaphysics". But I'm philosophically-open to meta-speculation, as long as it has some grounding in empirical reality. :joke:


    Neutral monism is a philosophical theory that posits that reality is made up of a neutral entity that is neither physical nor mental. It's a type of monism, which is the idea that all of existence is unified
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=neutral+monism

    "Neutral Quantum Process Monism" refers to a philosophical concept that suggests the fundamental reality of the universe is a single, neutral underlying process that is best understood through the principles of quantum mechanics, where both mental and physical phenomena emerge as different aspects of this single process, rather than being separate entities
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Neutral+Quantum+Process+Monism
  • punos
    685
    "Who or what does the separating? Is the separation physical or conceptual??? How does this plugging & unplugging fit into Whitehead's Process Philosophy?"Gnomon

    From the perspective of the model i'm currently working with, i believe the answer is primordial time (also known as timeless time). Primordial time is a non-physical process/substance that yields physicality. I explain this temporal logic in a little more detail below:

    Primordial time is active logic. The logical operation of negation, or more precisely inversion, is its main function. The temporal operation of inversion contains within it the operations of disjunction and conjunction. It's a bit tricky to explain correctly, but inversion implies two opposite states. If NOT 0, then 1; if NOT 1, then 0. This means that NOT includes within it 0 AND 1, but only 0 OR 1 at a time. This logic in time resembles a kind of trinity of NOT, AND, OR, and neither one can exist without the others thus they are one. These three operators can not be broken down any further without destroying logic itself, it is indivisible. It is the maximum simplicity, and minimal complexity needed for the universe to exist as it is.

    The trinity of logic:

    NOT = (AND, OR)
    OR = (NOT AND)
    AND = (NOT OR)
    punos

    To gain some context for what i'm saying, you might find it useful to read my posts at "The logic of a universal origin and meaning"

    The distinction between physical and conceptual, as you put it, is a matter of relativity. From the perspective of the universe, it is conceptual, and from the perspective of things within the universe, it is physical. However, if we adopt the perspective of the universe itself, everything should appear as conceptual. So idealism in general terms, is probably correct.

    This temporal logic can, if one wishes, be called God, or not. It makes no difference what word you use because things are not words. Things are what they do. In another thread i posted in, i compared the universe to a computer, saying that if the universe were a computer, then time would be its CPU processor, and space would be its RAM memory. Active logic (time/CPU) coupled with memory (space/RAM) are the minimal requirements for a mind of any kind.
  • punos
    685
    I had never heard of "Neutral Monism", so I Googled it. If the Monistic Entity (Singularity?) is "neither physical nor mental", what is it? Spiritual ; Essence ; Substance? Is the "Neutral Entity" G*D?Gnomon

    I don't know if you can or should call it anything. All of those words are simultaneously right and wrong. We can call it "nothing" or we can have different words to address different aspects of it at different times.

    "Is "Neutral Quantum Process Monism" an extant philosophical concept, or did you just make it up for this thread?"Gnomon

    I made it up for this thread as a suggestion for a possible name to give this framework.
  • punos
    685
    I'm suddenly reminded of The Never Ending Story.

    The "Nothing":
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    Well, the way i currently see it, charge can be understood as a manifestation of broken symmetry in space. This perspective is based on the idea that particles like electrons and positrons are not isolated entities but rather parts of a symmetric whole that has been separated by some measure.

    When an electron is created, it is always accompanied by the creation of a positron. Similarly, an electron can only be "destroyed" through interaction with a positron, and vice versa. This suggests to me that an underlying symmetry, when broken by temporal decay, produces two particles that represent the energetic difference between the asymmetric state of the particle and its original symmetric state. Each particle thus carries the complementary charge energy that completes its antipair.
    punos

    I'm going to look for more of my notes from Gavin Giorbran, who noted the grouping order of the Start as matter and anti-matter going on the symmetry order of the End.

    Here's some of it:

    Why did the universe have such low entropy in the past, if it did, that is, very high order, especially as seen as a grouping order, with but one general arrangement of matter versus antimatter, which beginning we will call ‘Alpha’, instead of the high disorder of many mixed-up arrangements, this high order resulting in the distinction between past and future and the second law of thermodynamics?

    Assuming this low entropy beginning is true, although it’s often thought that this would be a seemingly rare, unlikely state, as just one out of so many others possible as disorder, must rather be very likely, even as to be the only way a universe can begin, since the universe indeed began as such.

    Why, though, does whatever brought on this universe, end up with this initial state for the universe to be of the highest possible grouping order? And is it in any way related to the proposed end of the universe being of a featureless blend of dispersal that is a symmetry order (which end we will call ‘Omega’)?
    Reveal
    Is our universe’s Alpha start so improbable as it seems, what with its severe grouping order of separated matter and antimatter, such as that of the separated white and black pieces at the beginning of a chess game, as with all these ideas from Gavin Giorbran.

    Such an arrangement seems a rarity, but it may rather be that time cannot go forward that well if there is no progression from this very distinct grouping order of the Alpha Start toward the proposed Omega End of a totally blended symmetry order, this idea similar to the end as disorder of high entropy from any start of low entropy.

    The universe is now in its its diversity stage, both at large and in our own Earthly aisle, yet its future of a blended symmetry order perhaps ever pulls/guides the present along, such as in the “time is like a river” analogy, this ‘flow’ proceeding inexorably from Lake Alpha to Lake Omega.
    How and why was the seemingly rare state of the high ordered Alpha beginning of our universe accomplished?

    The ‘IS’, as great as it is, is still subject to two boundaries, as the start and end described above.
    All the probabilities of all the ending balance must trace back to the one and only state of the most probable beginning of all, the greatest imbalance of all, matter and anti-matter, with Totality in a quantum superposition, all at once—the quantum probability patterns really being so, not just a math tool.

    The separation of matter and anti-matter is the greatest possible imbalance, but all the probability balances must trace forward to the greatest and most probable balance at the end of all.

    The ultimate, flat, symmetry order of the Omega—the end of all, draws the river of time along, guiding it, through the probability patterns, as well as the Alpha pushing it.

    The Time River of Probabilities flows smoother and further near its center, while near the shores there are eddies and swirls, contrasts, lumpiness, ebbs—even back flow.

    The nows proceed and the moments play, motion but apparent, as successive frames of an all-at-once Block Universe—all the alternate plot’s scenarios being, which will blend at the Omega.

    Our two brain hemispheres, too, must reflect the nature of the universe itself, as the left-side grouping order versus and with the whole of the right-side symmetry order.

    Top-down drives the bottom-up ‘events’, the future ever affecting the present; The flat whiteness of the Omega End brings forth the diversified prismatic colors from the Alpha Start.

    Electrons, protons, seem ‘bottom-up’, but are ‘enfolded’ in the top-down whole, as with Bohm’s implicit order guiding the blooming, unfolding, explicit order.

    There are still many more ways for the universe to be lumpy, in degrees, than for it to be perfectly smooth, and that’s why there’s still some grouping order, as with galaxies and solar systems.

    The no longer ‘improbable’ symmetry of uniformity comes at future’s end; This Omega symmetry order is the opposite of Alpha’s grouping order.

    The fundamental reality then is en-un-foldment; particles are abstractions from that. Electrons don’t exist continuously but are coming, going, then coming again.

    Probabilities are actualities, so probabilities exist, so then we have a simple solution to why our universe came from a dense state.

    All the possible patterns of the past and future exist simultaneously, independent of the passage of time frames, so, the history of a temporal universe moving through those possible patterns will inevitably trace backward to the extreme, greatest imbalance, and hence to the severe order of the Alpha start.

    It seems strange that time began from Alpha, unless patterns are physically real, so then time invariably originates from the greatest imbalance of them all.

    Time’s forward direction is ever toward balance. and so when it’s traced backward, that same path invariably originates from imbalance; the temporal universe is as it must be.

    Since pattern space is existing there then the flow of time is built into reality, causing probable time-worlds to exist, while extremely improbable time-worlds will not.

    The must-existence of patterns is great, for the hierarchy of atomic elements, star systems, bio-life, consciousness, and, finally, intelligence and wisdom.

    If time and change were not restricted to probability’s arrow of time built into pattern space then anything could happen and would happen, as chaos.

    The end promotes the means in that time’s river, having a specific ending, explains why the universe’s wave function is specific. If what’s possible was just coming from the past, there’s no reasonable explanation for the control of all the probabilities, such as the wave density of atomic particles, A river only from the past would be flowing outward into chaos, but it can’t.

    Take the above with a grain of salt.
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    Yes. Infinite, unbounded, undefined Potential is Everything, Everywhere, All-at-once. Simply BEING.Gnomon

    Is this as the eternalism of a Block-Universe?
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    Gavin GiorbranPoeticUniverse

    more, a digest, some repetition, then new information on his theory:

    Time Forward
    The Alpha of the Beginning can’t be
    From the impossible nonexistence;
    Only time begins, and so the universe
    Must be such that time moves frames forward.

    Grouping Order to Symmetry Order
    Wherefore why the ‘improbable’ Alpha,
    It being the most complete grouping order
    Of separated and inverse matter?
    Only then is the pull toward symmetry.

    To the ‘Improbable’
    All the possibilities of the imbalances
    Must trace back to the one and only state
    Of the most probable beginning of all,
    The separation of matter and anti-matter.

    Between River Shores and Lakes Alpha/Omega
    The ultimate, flat, symmetry order
    Of the Omega—the end of all, draws
    The river of time along, guiding it,
    Through the probability patterns.
    Reveal
    The Wave Function of the Universe
    Totality is in a superposition,
    All at once—of no time and of no space,
    The quantum probability patterns
    Really being so, not just a math tool.

    From Grouping Order to Blended Symmetry Order
    The Time River of Probabilities
    Flows smoother and further near its center,
    While near the shores there are eddies and swirls,
    Contrasts, lumpiness, ebbs—even back flow.

    Timeless ‘Time’
    The pages turn and the living film plays,
    Motion but apparent, as successive frames—
    All the alternate plot’s scenarios being,
    Which will blend into ‘everything forever’.

    We Reflecting the Universe Start-End
    The two brain hemispheres, too, must reflect
    The nature of the universe itself,
    As the grouping order versus and with
    The whole of the symmetry order.

    The Hare Beats the Turtle
    The universe expands, forming a light cone;
    The arc of the ‘ice-cream’ end getting flatter,
    Seeming to take forever to straighten—
    Accelerating expansion bridges the gap.

    It Has Always Been
    Is
    Nonexistence can’t be, nor even meant;
    So it is that existence must be here;
    There’s no other option, by necessity,
    And thus herein these pages we learn its ways.

    Divergence and Convergence
    Top-down drives the bottom-up ‘events’,
    The future ever affecting the present;
    The flat whiteness of the Omega End
    Brings forth diversified prismatic colors.

    Enfoldment/Unfoldment
    Electrons, protons, seem ‘bottom-up’
    But are ‘enfolded’ in the top-down whole,
    As with Bohm’s implicit order guiding
    The blooming, unfolding, explicit order.

    The Second of the Final Laws
    Boltzman’s increasing disorder (entropy),
    Due to there being many more states of
    Disorder than order, is close to the mark,
    But it’s more-so of the ungrouped patterns.

    As Well, There Are Many More Ways For…
    The universe to be lumpy, in degrees,
    Than for it to be perfectly smooth,
    And that’s why there’s still a grouping order,
    As with galaxies and solar systems.

    The Opposite ‘Improbable’
    The not so ‘improbable’ symmetry
    Of uniformity comes at future’s end;
    This Omega symmetry order is
    The opposite of Alpha’s grouping order.

    Bohm’s Poem of Home
    Classical physics says that reality
    Is of particles that separate
    The world into independent elements;
    But now I am proposing the reverse…

    Close Condensations Approximate a Track
    The fundamental reality is en-un-foldment;
    Particles are abstractions from that.
    Electrons don’t exist continuously
    But are coming, going, then coming again.

    Real Quantum Mechanics
    Possibilities are actualities, so
    Possibilities exist, in a timeless way,
    So then we have a simple solution
    To why our universe came from a dense state.

    All at Once
    All the possible patterns of the past
    And future exist simultaneously,
    Independent of the passage of time frames,
    So, the history of a temporal universe…

    Why Time
    Moving through those possible patterns
    Will inevitably trace backward to
    The extreme, greatest imbalance, and hence
    To the severe order of the Alpha start.

    Time’s Direction
    It seems strange that time began from Alpha,
    Unless patterns are physically real.
    Then time invariably originates
    From the greatest imbalance of them all.

    Toward Balance
    Time’s forward direction is ever toward balance.
    And so when it’s traced backward, that same path
    Invariably originates from imbalance;
    The temporal universe is as it must be.

    Time Explained
    Any path of time embedded within
    A physically real pattern space would
    Exhibit a history that originates from the
    Single most improbable location of all: Alpha.

    Probable Existence
    Since pattern space is existingly there
    Then the flow of time is built into reality,
    Causing probable time-worlds to exist, while
    Extremely improbable time-worlds do not.

    What Exists
    All possibilities must exist,
    Because nonexistence cannot be so.
    Existence is inevitable. What does exist?
    Whatever is possible to exist does exist.

    Our Existence is Not Absurd
    Time-worlds are secondary, subject to
    The realer reality of timeless patterns.
    Time’s passage must pass through patterns;
    ‘Tis no more spectacular than a moment.

    What Patterns Lead to
    The must-existence of patterns is great—
    For the hierarchy of atomic elements,
    Stars systems, bio-life, consciousness,
    And finally intelligence and wisdom.

    No Chaotic Change
    If time and change were not restricted
    To probability’s arrow of time
    Built into pattern space then anything
    Could happen and would happen, as chaos.

    Quantum Collapse
    Quantum events are a “handshake” between
    Past (retarded waves) information
    And future (advanced waves) information,
    Causing the probabilities to collapse to ‘now’.

    Probabilities Produced From the Whole
    Time doesn’t simply roll into the future,
    For there’s a mesh of probabilities
    Where possible pasts and futures meet,
    Which scientists correctly call ‘non-local’.

    The Complete Transaction
    When we stand in the dark and look at
    A star not only have the retarded waves
    From the star have been long traveling,
    But advanced waves have reached into the past.

    The End Promotes the Means
    Time’s river, having a specific ending, explains
    Why the universe’s wave function is specific.
    If what’s possible was just coming from the past,
    There’s no reasonable explanation…

    The Guidance Goal: Lake Alpha to Lake Omega
    For the control of all the probabilities,
    Such as the wave density of atomic particles,
    A river only from the past would be
    Flowing outward into chaos, but it can’t.

    The New Natural Selection
    ‘Evolution’ is thus an ordered happening,
    From the unnoted neutral order in the future,
    Along with the positive order of the past.
    (So now we know there must be a negative.)

    The Whole Thing
    The positive order in the Alpha past
    Is only half of the Cosmos’ puzzle,
    Merely half of a larger duality, one side
    Of the great divide, one side of the coin.

    The Chess Board
    Our Alpha is one chess player as the game begins,
    When all the pieces of one color are divided apart,
    Half of the most extreme case of grouping order;
    Both Alphas are the highest imbalance and contrast.

    Time, and Time Again
    Time travels from positive to neutral,
    While anti-time travels from negative to neutral,
    But, note that time & anti-time are much identical.
    We may even be alternating back and forth.

    Matter Traveling Backward in Time
    If matter is evolving forward in time,
    Anti-matter is matter evolving backward in time,
    In the direction of our own positive Alpha,
    Explaining why anti-matter is unstable on our side.

    Other Matters
    Stable anti-matter exists on the other side
    Of ours in anti-time, traveling inversely in time,
    Not backwards, but away from the negative Alpha
    Toward the universal Omega.

    Space-Time Distance
    Since time is a direction in space,
    Then the space that we’re within is special.
    It’a not a 3-D space in which things move about;
    It is instead what Einstein called space-time.

    4-D, Not 3-D
    Space-time is a product of “4-D directions”
    In space that travel through a series of many
    3-D block-like spaces, jumping from one to the next,
    As a new volume dependent on the 4-D directions.

    The Probability of Balance
    Exterior to the 3-D spaces, the 4-D volume
    That we exist within changes and transforms;
    It evolves because most of the spacial
    Directions move from Alpha toward Omega.

    The Unnoted Dimension
    This 4-D volume is what collapses
    In the phase of accelerating expansion (Big Rip),
    Even though the actual universe is expanding.
    This acceleration is inevitable.

    Driven by Opposites
    This dominant probability
    Makes our volume (our space) positive
    In reference to the volume of
    Anti-time which is negative.

    Inversion
    Anti-time is a negative space,
    Or negative space-time,
    Which is properly referred to
    As negative volume.

    The Unseen Scene
    Inverse matter can only exist in
    The negative volume of anti-time.
    We cannot observe the negative density
    Of an inverse-proton in our positive space.

    Two Worlds
    Our positive volume would collapse
    Before the inverse proton could
    Exist spatially extended, on our side
    Of the dividing line between worlds.

    Amazing
    The negative electron is but a point particle.
    Our positive volume collapses before
    The negative density that gives the electron
    A definite mass can exist spatially extended.

    Front and Back
    Electrons are one side of inverse-protons in anti-time,
    Which means the back side of our protons
    Are inverse electrons, and our electrons
    Are the back side of someone else’s protons.

    For Opposites to Move To Balance
    The whole progression of time is driven
    By a slow cosmic influx of negative density leaking
    Into our positive volume from the other side;
    A slow merging of the two sides is occurring,

    Expansion
    The two sides must slowly and gradually unite,
    Which from our perspective causes
    The cosmos to grow larger and expand,
    In the first steps away from Alpha,…

    Divergence
    Time is stepping away from the uniformity
    And sameness of a perfect positive state
    And is necessarily moving into the
    Beginning of variety and diversity.

    Intermixed
    The negative can visibly invade Alpha
    By tunneling into its positive space,
    Creating fluctuations in the CBR, or at
    Micro-scales as negative charge point particles.

    The Cosmic Plans
    In order to control the cosmos,
    In the necessity to bring itself about,
    Omega must even rigidly regulate
    The early cosmos in its first moments.

    Equality
    As if planning to bring about complexity and life,
    The early fluctuations in expansion are moderate,
    The masses of electrons all kept equal,
    The ratio of electrons-protons kept even.

    Has to Be
    With the precision of a watchmaker,
    The inevitable future carefully designs
    The stable particles with properties that will
    Produce the periodic table, molecules, even DNA.

    Only Two Ways
    Why just the proton and electron?
    Why just two stable fundamental particles?
    Why are they matched with polar charges?
    They are forged with a specific goal in mind.

    All the Pieces of the Puzzle
    We know what we think of as a material universe
    Is really an intricate interplay of imbalances.
    All that is known are positives and negatives,
    As the stable protons and electrons.

    The March of Time
    Following time backward only increases imbalance,
    In seeing that time originates fully positive,
    And then slowly becomes less positive,
    Until it becomes neutral, centered.

    The Trend Shows
    We now realize there actually should be
    Great imbalances evident in the world around us.
    There should be even much greater
    Imbalances evident in our Alpha past.

    1836 Times More Massive
    The proton should be heavier than the electron.
    We don’t note an equal number of anti-matter galaxies.
    We shouldn’t expect there to be equal amounts
    Of matter & anti-matter near the beginning of time.

    The Mystery
    The question that has haunted us for so long,
    “Why is there something rather than nothing?”
    Is related to asking “Why is there asymmetry?”
    “Why are there imbalances present?”

    The Results
    Form and material things, substance itself,
    Are products of the imbalances that
    Exist within the cosmic balance—
    Everything a great tapestry of imbalance.

    Further Why
    And when we ask the question “Why are
    There imbalances instead of why somethingness?”
    It’s simple and unavoidable that imbalances exist.
    Imbalances are natural inside any overall balance.

    Should Have Known the Timeless Everything
    Our finite world could only be an imbalanced system.
    We exist because a balanced whole exists,
    Which we incorrectly see as nothing,
    And worse still, confuse with nonexistence.

    The Forces Explained
    All forces are probabilities, simply the
    Most predictable events we experience.
    In fact, gravity is the probability
    For time to travel backwards.

    Gravity is Time Moving Backwards
    Gravity is trying to recreate the past.
    In an expanding universe the past
    Is increasingly denser; less expanded.
    Gravity battles with the universe’s expansion.

    Expansion is a Force From the Future
    The trend of nature is not at all toward disorder,
    But it is for balance to increase.
    Being drawn toward the balance of zero
    The universe invariably expands.

    Two Steps Forward, One Step Back
    The universe’s expansion is time moving forward.
    Cosmological expansion isn’t a consequence
    Of some chance explosion in the past.
    It is a force, just like gravity (Gravity’s losing).

    Electromagnetism is Time Moving Forward
    Electromagnetism is the perfect balance
    Of the future’s absolute zero influencing the present.
    The balance of the future, the most probable state,
    Is a great cosmic attractor of all universes-change.

    Push-Pull
    We can feel absolute zero pulling
    And pushing the cosmos around.
    We feel this balance of zero
    As electricity and magnetism.

    Moving Toward Greater Balance
    Positive and negative particles
    Are moving nearer to the balance,
    For like particles will naturally repel
    While opposite particles attract.

    Imagine Electromagnetism in Reverse
    Like particles would then attract
    And opposite particles would repel.
    Such a force would cause positive and negative
    Particles to divide apart into separate groups.

    Nucleon Binding
    In fact, when like particles such as
    Positive protons bond together,
    Time is actually moving backward.
    The strong force is electromagnetism in reverse.

    How it Works
    The strong force battles against electromagnetism,
    Causing positive protons to attract at short distances.
    If protons and neutrons get close enough,
    The repulsion of electromagnetism is overcome.

    The Ranges
    The strong force holds the nucleus together,
    Just like gravity holds-creates stars and galaxies.
    The strong force is the short range gravity;
    Electromagnetism dominates on the larger scale.


    The Power Broker Breaker
    Something must overcome the strong force,
    Because electromagnetism cannot break
    The bond between like protons by itself.
    Electromagnetism-expansion beats gravity-strong.

    Forces Are the Possible Directions of Time
    At some point in the future the weak force
    Has to break down all the complex atoms in
    The universe into individual protons and electrons.
    The Weak Force is time moving forward.

    The Power of the Weak
    The weak force is an extension of electromagnetism.
    The weak force grew out of electromagnetism
    In the early stages of the big bang,
    Prior to which there was just the electroweak force.

    No Absolute Motion
    Objects do not move about in Newton’s vessel
    Of empty space because a real perfectly
    Flat space would be absolutely chock full.
    Thus, the relative, not absolute universe.

    Empty Curvatures
    Objects can only exist as distinct forms
    In a space where their opposites have
    Been removed or displaced to create
    A half space or parallel regions.

    Space, the Final Frontier
    This creates the present interdependence
    Between matter and space which led Einstein
    To describe space as an extension of mass.
    ‘Space’ seems to be the ultimate challenge.

    The Ultimate Puzzle
    We’ve learned about space relative to materials.
    A common theme is that matter and space
    Are two forms of the same thing. Not exactly.
    Matter is really an absence of content.

    All Told and Tolled
    If the cosmos stretches totally flat,
    Then matter and space are equivalent,
    But this leads to a very dramatic switch
    In how we evaluate the universe, whereby we see…

    What Matters
    That particles are holes in a primary full space,
    Rather than material things arisen
    Above and more primary than space.
    Matter is a bi-product of space.

    Two Apples Means Two More Anti-Apples
    For our universe to exist, an identical
    But opposite anti-matter universe
    Has to be removed from space.
    Why are we separate from our other half?

    Half and Half
    Perfect symmetry doesn’t create nonexistence.
    Perfect symmetry is just everything experienced
    At the same time in the same space.
    Opposites don’t cancel—we’re here observing half.

    In Order For There to be Symmetry
    From our place in the world, we cannot
    Or would not directly observe unified symmetry.
    It’s hidden, in our future or in our past.
    We need to be here; there has to be asymmetry.

    Nonexistence Isn’t; Perfect Symmetry Is
    The combination of our galaxy
    With an inverse anti-matter galaxy,
    As combined, and every other pair of galaxies,
    All exist joined together in ordinary space.

    Taken and Placed Somewhere Else
    And so matter is not more than space;
    It is less than space; it’s what happens
    When part of something whole is taken away,
    Taken from the place and time we call ‘now’.

    The New Normal
    It’s difficult to re-normalize after such a switch,
    But the fullness or substantive aspect we attribute
    To matter is present in space more than in matter.
    Dense matter is an absence, as in the tiny early universe.

    Things Aren’t More Than Nothing
    Mass and density are both a measure of absence.
    Objects cannot exist unless their opposite
    Is removed from that seeming emptiness.
    Things are then less than everything.

    Accentuating the Positive
    A negative density can only
    Exist in a negative volume, just as
    Positive density can only exist in a positive volume.
    This allows the mass value to always remain positive.

    Curves
    Matter is like bubbles in a water aquarium—
    Tiny voids in a denser medium.
    Density is a positive or negative void
    That causes the curvature of the bubble.

    Going, Going…
    We live in a positive bubble (volume)
    That is actually collapsing,
    As distant galaxies expand away from us
    At speeds beyond the speed of light.

    Everything Leaks
    We detect the mass of a negative
    Density as a point of zero volume,
    Or what is called a point particle;
    Electrons leaked over from the anti-time side.

    Each as Half of Totality
    The electron leak is in response to the
    Existence of protons on our side,
    Which is why the ratio of electrons
    To protons in the universe is exactly even.

    The Point of It
    So why does the electron point particle
    Have a defined mass, as opposed to infinite?
    A negative density cannot be
    Spatially extended in a positive volume.

    Confined to a Point
    The electron mass exists in a negative
    Volume that opens up beyond the point of the
    Electron in the ghostlike invisible partner.
    Negative density also explains polarity of charge.

    Credited Debits
    Positive and negative things are debts
    That have to be repaid to a larger neutral space.
    Charges reflect imbalances in a spatial content.
    To create particles creates indents, or curvatures.

    The Flow
    The only way for the plus-minus puzzle pieces
    To exist separate from one another
    Is if time originates from such a state,
    An imbalance, then moves toward equilibrium.

    One Way
    Equilibrium never breaks down into imbalance;
    Something does not come from nothing.
    But time will start from something imbalanced,
    And evolve toward balance, or ‘nothing’.

    A Four Dimensional Space
    When you combine an infinite past and future,
    Time is-was relative (allowing the infinite).
    Everything exists in one huge moment of now,
    Which supersedes the possibility of existential change.

    The Printed Pages
    Time-worlds are imprinted within the great moment,
    So the time of such worlds must travel linearly
    From a beginning on to an ending.
    Books have binding; movie frames are projected.

    The Clock-Block Universe
    At any tick of the clock the world is
    In a particular condition or state,
    Which is called lateral time, and each distinct
    Moment is in an individual universe.

    Linear and Lateral Time
    How can distinctly separate blocks of space
    Be simultaneously fused into a linear progression?
    If they are fused then they are not distinct;
    If they are distinct, then they aren’t really fused.

    The Separate and the Common
    What separates one block of time from another?
    Only the definition of each time block
    Maintains it as separate from other states, and
    Spaces are always linked by a common existence.

    The Sum of the Fragments
    They are all embedded in the same great
    Never ending moment—all fragments of the whole.
    Each spatial pattern is a tiny internal part,
    And only the patterns’ sum creates the whole.

    The Lateral
    There also exist directions in space which travel across
    Or through the multiplicity of these blocks—
    A 4-D that independently constructs
    The lateral component of its surroundings.

    Governed by the Innate Probabilities
    Each individual direction moving through
    The blocks becomes a sort of parent
    To a lateral time world—its own 4-D space,
    Strictly relative to that single parent direction.

    Replacing Chaotic Freedom
    Each of these directions in space are free to find
    Their way through the overall multispatiality,
    Except the direction of travel, and so each path
    Is governed by the probabilities of the superspace.

    A Very Strict Guidance System
    The result is a fourth dimensionality of space,
    In which the lateral surroundings of each 4-D
    Parent direction are uniquely constructed
    Strictly relative to that single parent direction.

    The Series of Stills
    Time passes through many spaces, and
    Each block is an individual moment.
    An object does not move through the spaces,
    Rather it stays and exists frozen in each space.

    Time Rules
    Only time, which is actually a
    Special direction in space, is able
    To pass through multiple 3-D spaces,
    Traveling from one moment to the next.

    4-D Touches All of 3-D
    An undivided existence of all
    Conceivable 3-D configurations
    Would inevitably create the 4-D of
    Spatial directions passing between the blocks.

    The Full Range
    We will invariably observe a sampling
    Of galaxies which reflects the widest range
    Of configurations that pattern space dictates, plus
    Ranges of solar systems, planets, moons, asteroids.

    All
    We will observe the whole range of geography,
    The whole range of possible chemistry,
    The whole range of other lifeforms,
    The whole range of personalities.

    Connections
    All is then integrated into the parent direction,
    Inevitably causing expansion and growth—
    Letters, words, phrases, sentences, verse (uni).
    We ourselves are the evolution of time.
  • Gnomon
    3.9k
    The fundamental issue which makes process philosophy counterintuitive, is that we cannot properly conceptualize a process, or activity without something which is active.Metaphysician Undercover
    That's why Materialism is more intuitive for most people. And it may be why a philosophical concept like Whitehead's rational Process Theory may never become the basis of a popular religion. :chin: :brow:

    While researching Process and Reality, I recently came across this article :

    Why should we prefer 'process philosophy/ontology' against the traditional 'substance theory/ontology' in metaphysics? — Metaphysics of Science
    https://www.reddit.com/r/PhilosophyofScience/comments/1eej0sd/why_should_we_prefer_process_philosophyontology/

    This essay notes that Substances are "independent entities" defined as the "bearers of properties". But can they really be "independent" of the Universal System (physics) and of the process of Cosmic Evolution (property change)? Also, are the Properties (Qualia?) themselves also Substances, or subjective observations of mental changes due to sensory inputs? Can we separate a Property Bearer from its Properties and the observer? If so, by what criteria can we rate one or the other as Primary or Preferable? Seems like Substances and Qualia go together like birds of a common property.

    One assumption of Substance Theory (Materialism) is "that change is just an appearance/illusion or if it’s real, it is entirely derivative or secondary at best". But, are "properties, relations, and events" processes or substances? Is Energy, as the cause of change, illusory? Scientists typically define Energy by what it does (change over time : processes) instead of what it is (substance). Likewise, Quantum Physics long ago gave-up on finding the ultimate particle (Atom). So they now define the ultimate something as a "field", which is simply an empty place in space where some change happens.

    The article concludes with this question : "Why should we be willing to give up such a long tradition with substance theory in favour of this “newer” paradigm?" Personally, my answer is that the choice between Substance & Process theories depends on what you intend to do with it --- so to speak. Pragmatic Science will get practical here & now results from being guided by the Substance worldview. But Philosophical Speculation (investigation) may get closer to the ultimate universal Truth of Reality, by following the Process worldview to see where it leads in time & taste. :smile:

    IF THE WAYWARD PATH LEADS INTO THE DARK DANGEROUS WOODS, YOU MIGHT CONSIDER TAKING AN ALTERNATIVE PATH. BUT ON WHAT BASIS WOULD YOU CHOOSE? THAT'S PHILOSOPHY.
    FQDaI1DXIAI47Rq.jpg
  • Gnomon
    3.9k
    Gavin GiorbranPoeticUniverse

    “Physicists and cosmologists have long questioned whether a state of perfect
    symmetry ever existed in the past, we just haven't ever considered it as a possible
    future. We have been convinced instead, because we observe a measure of
    randomness that the order of the universe is simply winding down. But if anything
    it is winding up! Everything is enfolding together. The final state of zero
    which the universe has been evolving toward since the very dawn of time is
    simply the native state of the Universe. It is the timeless whole. It is truly everything
    forever. And we aren’t really becoming, we are already there. The universe
    we know, the past, the future, and the infinity of other universes, all exist simultaneously.
    We are inside that whole. We are a part of the native state of zero,
    part of the eternal present.”

    ― Gevin Giorbran, Everything Forever : Learning To See Timelessness

    Entropy seems to be aiming at ultimate nothingness. But Zero is just the flip-side of Infinity. GG seems to be imagining deChardin's Omega Point, not as cosmic death, but a new beginning. I don't know if he's right, but he has a poetic way of expressing the physics of space & time. :smile:
  • Gnomon
    3.9k
    From the perspective of the model i'm currently working with, i believe the answer is primordial time (also known as timeless time).Primordial time is a non-physical process/substance that yields physicality. I explain this temporal logic in a little more detail below:punos
    I'm not familiar with the notion of "Primordial Time" as a "non-physical process". And I can't imagine a temporal process that does not involve physical objects : e.g. Darwinian Evolution. Our intuition of Time and Process is based on the changes we observe in the material world. But we also create Metaphors from that sensory experience to explain apparent changes in mental states over time : alterations in mood, behavior, thought patterns, and level of awareness. Can you explain "timeless time" in an example that is not an oxymoron*1?

    On a possibly related topic, another thread "Underlying Reality" for Husserl*2, "J" says "that there is some thing or process – a “flow” -- that serves as raw material for our abstractions of ordinary objects and perceptions. This flow can be characterized using descriptions such as “texture,” “consonance,” “dissonance,” and “affordance.” This doesn't turn on a light bulb in my head. But it does remind me of Whitehead's notion of Process, which seems to mean something like the Life-path of the Cosmos, as interpreted by cogitating creatures.

    As an untutored amateur who has learned most of his Philosophy from skimming this forum, I know nothing of Husserl*3. So most of the vocabulary of that thread is over my head. Do you see any parallels between your "non-physical process that yields physicality", and Husserl's "flow, that serves as raw material for our abstractions of ordinary objects and perceptions"? :chin:


    *1. An oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines two words with opposite meanings.


    *2. "Underlying Reality" for Husserl
    . . . . . that there is some thing or process – a “flow” -- that serves as raw material for our abstractions of ordinary objects and perceptions. This flow can be characterized using descriptions such as “texture,” “consonance,” “dissonance,” and “affordance.”
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15796/underlying-reality-for-husserl

    *3. "Husserl is primarily known for his analyses of intentionality, perception, temporality, embodiment, and intersubjectivity, for his rehabilitation of the lifeworld and his commitment to a form of transcendental idealism and for his criticism of reductionism, objectivism, and scientism"
    https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780195396577/obo-9780195396577-0210.xml
  • punos
    685
    "I'm not familiar with the notion of "Primordial Time" as a "non-physical process". And I can't imagine a temporal process that does not involve physical objects : e.g. Darwinian Evolution. Our intuition of Time and Process is based on the changes we observe in the material world. But we also create Metaphors from that sensory experience to explain apparent changes in mental states over time : alterations in mood, behavior, thought patterns, and level of awareness. Can you explain "timeless time" in an example that is not an oxymoron*1?"Gnomon

    For me, the adjective "timeless" means never having a beginning or ending. It's not my favorite word for it, however i use it because i assume it's what people generally mean by it, though i might be wrong about that.

    The usual way i try to explain it is by asking one to imagine a completely empty space. No matter, no energy, no quantum foam, nothing at all, no time. This is a blank state with zero degrees of freedom, and what we want to do is ask the question: What is the first thing that we need (the first degree of freedom) to set up the required initial conditions out of which this universe can emerge?

    I've concluded that the first thing to add to this blank space is the potential for change. It must be able to change in order for anything to occur. This is the first degree of freedom: something that has causal power. It is the primordial pattern of state continuity (primordial time). This means, first, that an object can indeed be placed in this temporal space, and more than that, it can continue to occupy its given space by virtue of this power of causal continuity. It doesn't mean it has to move; it simply means it can exist. Notice that if there were a room that did not contain this temporal continuity, you wouldn't even be able to walk or enter into it. It would feel like a maximally solid barrier to you; some sort of deep, black, solid object.

    After a thing exists by the power of temporal continuity, things that exist can interact with other things that exist, governed by the rules of temporal logic (Logos). This interactivity of existing things constitutes the emergence of relative time (entropic time).

    Ask yourself this question: What is the meaning of time if there were only one object in an otherwise infinitely empty space? How is time measured? What is the arrow of time for this object?

    Also, what is it that even allows process to happen? Physically or otherwise.

    "Do you see any parallels between your "non-physical process that yields physicality", and Husserl's "flow, that serves as raw material for our abstractions of ordinary objects and perceptions"?"Gnomon

    I'm not familiar with Husserl, but this "flow" sounds familiar and appears to resonate with part of my model of time. I'm not sure if it's the same, but one of the ways i envision it is as a 0-dimensional point that has a kind of "non-physical" force or energy running through it constantly, depositing or converting "temporal energy" into "spatial energy" (physicality from our human perspective). There is a limit to how much of this temporal energy can be held in this 0-dimensional point, which i believe is the reason, or cause of the symmetry break and the nature of quantized energy states in quantum mechanics.

    When the spatial energy reaches its limit in the point space, it changes its state into something like an infinitesimally small "black hole". This little "black hole" is what fundamental physical particles are. Black holes form when the maximum density of energy is reached in a certain location in space, and it follows the same general pattern as in the particle case. For this reason, i believe stellar black holes are incursions into the 4th dimension, just as fundamental particles are the result of incursions into the 3rd dimension from the 2nd. Each dimension has its own kind of fundamental particles.

    I don't have everything worked out, of course, and i also experiment with different ways of explaining or describing it. The way that the "temporal energy" is deposited or concentrated in the point space, as per my description, can be worked out in a more detailed manner or perhaps even in a completely different way altogether.
  • punos
    685

    I don't know; it seems okay to me unless i misread or misunderstood something. Perhaps you did not like that i used the word "idealism"?
  • 180 Proof
    15.7k
    Perhaps you did not like that i used the word "idealism"?punos
    ???
  • punos
    685
    Perhaps you did not like that i used the word "idealism"? — punos

    ???
    180 Proof

    I'm sorry, i was under the impression you were reacting to this:
    However, if we adopt the perspective of the universe itself, everything should appear as conceptual. So idealism in general terms, is probably correct.punos

    Considering:
    (non-idealist, non-telos woo woo) foundational insights from which "process philosophy" is derived.180 Proof
  • Gnomon
    3.9k
    Considering:
    (non-idealist, non-telos woo woo) foundational insights from which "process philosophy" is derived. — 180 Proof
    punos
    FYI. As I understand it, 's worldview is Immanentist & Non-Idealist & Antitheist & Absurdist, among other metaphysical beliefs (i.e. unprovable). So any implication of intentional or theistic or teleological evolution is not just Outlandish & Alien, but also preposterous, ridiculous, unrealistic, non-sensical, stupid, and metaphysical. That's why he slyly & covertly treats the postulator as an idiot, who implicitly should be banned from posting on a Scientism forum.

    Ironically, Whitehead's "foundational insights" were primarily derived from the non-classical & paradoxical implications of Quantum Physics*1*2*3*4. Which also inspired a lot of mystical New Age religious notions. But also some novel scientific offshoots, such as Systems Theory, Complexity Theory, and Statistical Mechanics, as well as some unorthodox philosophical directions such as Holism, Creative Evolution, Information Science, and Process Physics. Since the Enlightenment turn toward materialism/empiricism evolved into dogma, some pragmatists view any theoretical philosophy as woo-woo mysticism.

    Although Whitehead was a remarkable mathematician, apparently he was not a hard-nosed logician, or empirical scientist. Instead, like many mathematicians --- going back to Pythagoras, Pascal, and Ramanujan --- he seemed to view the world from the open-minded perspective of an artist or mystic*5. Yet, some insist that Physics and Mathematics have no place for mysticism*6. Mysticism is not the same as revealed religion though. Instead, mystics feel that the world has aspects that are concealed from the rational mind, hence can only be known by alternative means, such as intuition. Besides, I've seen no evidence that Whitehead was a practicing mystic (extravagances & frenzies) following any traditional path, as the "woo woo" accusation implies. :smile:


    *1. Philosophical Issues in Quantum Theory :
    Despite its status as a core part of contemporary physics, there is no consensus among physicists or philosophers of physics on the question of what, if anything, the empirical success of quantum theory is telling us about the physical world.
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-issues/

    *2. Newtonian physics is unable to deal with such abstractions as energy, whereas quantum physics is able to deal with these abstractions.
    https://brainly.com/question/32280009

    *3. Newtonian mechanics doesn't contain matter and quantum mechanics never contains Newtonian paths without decoherence.
    https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/242711/is-it-correct-to-say-newtonian-mechanics-is-a-subset-of-quantum-mechanics

    *4. Whitehead's process theory, as outlined in his book "Process and Reality," shares significant similarities with quantum physics by viewing reality as fundamentally composed of interconnected "actual occasions" which are essentially events or processes rather than static objects, mirroring the quantum idea that matter exists as waves of probability until observed, emphasizing the dynamic and relational nature of reality at its core; this connection has led some philosophers to see Whitehead's philosophy as potentially compatible with the underlying principles of quantum mechanics.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=whitehead+process+theory+based+on+quantum+physics

    *5. This means that Whitehead is looking at the world not as a philosopher of science (that is, with the eyes of reason) but as an artist or a mystic.
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/amerjtheophil.39.3.0005

    *6. "No word in our language — not even 'Socialism'— has been employed more loosely than 'Mysticism.'" - Ralph William Inge

    "Religion is to mysticism what popularization is to science". ___Henri Bergson
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