• PartialFanatic
    14
    There is a great disagreement between the naturalist(-materialist)-atheists and theists about free will. The naturalist would go to lengths to argue for the evolutionary chain and deny free-will as life is caused deterministically. The materialist would deny any immaterial consciousness and lead again to the denial of free-will, in support of determinism.

    The (Christian) theist does not have to deal with any of this, as both problems can be supposedly solved if the problem is pushed back onto an external omnipotent being. God.

    The existence of an external deity not only grants us as conscious beings, but explains evolution as a purposeful process. Arguably, the former becomes a necessary prerequisite of the latter, as to be purposeful, we must first be conscious and be evolved into rational beings to trust any rational argument that we make. Rationality requires a rational consciousness, and a conscious mind has the capacity to choose good and evil.

    Let’s break this argument down. We have a chain of evolutions directed towards a purpose. A single purpose because of which we are rational. Without this purposeful directing of our reason, we would not have a reasonable mind. Now, if there could have been multiple forms of this ‘reason’ that we as a species might have evolved into, there is no purposeful direction. At the least, it violates the necessity of a God. Simply consider the possibility of us being irrational. If there is a possibility of that, we were not purposefully directed. If there isn’t, we were purposefully directed towards rationality.

    Put simply: free-will is only real if we have both the option to be rational and to be irrational. If we are rational because we were purposefully directed, then we simply could not have had the capacity to be irrational. Following this, one may concede to the argument that we do in fact have the capacity to be irrational despite being directed towards rationality. That raises another problem. If we are rational, we must know the clear distinction between right and wrong. If we do know how to discern between them, the next question would be: why do we do wrong at all? The natural response: clearly, we have free-will and have the capacity to commit wrong. At a first glance, the proposition seems true: we are capable of irrationality.

    Let us examine this more closely: In the case of a divine moral law above the human law which is considered objective, if we are conscious and rational so we can make both good and evil choices and at the same time trust our rationality, then we should never mix the two at all. Conclusively, anyone who appeals to the divine law must commit deeds knowing they are good or evil as one is conscious (having the freedom to choose good and evil deeds) and rational (having clear rational distinction between good and evil). If one commits an evil deed but calls it good, then clearly their rationality is clouded and they do not have access to this divine law. One may point out us as imperfect creatures with free-will, and as such not having access to the divine law as we may fall into temptation or sin. There may be an introduction of an ambiguous aspect. Perhaps, there is a divine purpose but it has not been realized completely: but would we really be rational then?

    To conclude, while one may expect a (objective) divine moral law, the expectation of intelligence-led evolution towards rationality that precedes it does not sit well with our experiential understanding of self-justified evils.

    Note: This is a response to using the teleological argument as an appeal that we should always be able to trust our rationality.

    What is your take on this topic?
  • wonderer1
    2.3k
    Simply consider the possibility of us being irrational. If there is a possibility of that, we were not purposefully directed. If there isn’t, we were purposefully directed towards rationality.PartialFanatic

    Of course humans are often irrational, and not as a matter of choice. Anyway...

    The “Unintelligent Design” of the Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve
  • PartialFanatic
    14
    humans are often irrational, and not as a matter of choicewonderer1

    I try to tackle on the impossibility of irrationality that the teleological argument proposes, specifically when it is used as an appeal that we should always be able to trust our rationality; I just made that edit.
  • Leontiskos
    4.4k


    Humans are capable of both rationality and irrationality. Does that fact imply something about Evolution? Presumably you are saying that it does imply something about Evolution.
  • PartialFanatic
    14


    This premise is derived from John Lennox's use of theistic evolution as an appeal that we should be able to trust our rationality. The simple statement goes like: "I ask scientists how they are able to trust their theories without a belief in a purpose-driven evolution."
  • Leontiskos
    4.4k
    - Okay thanks, that helps me make better sense of the OP.
  • Bodhy
    37
    But we can be irrational. Cogntiive biases are aplenty. Emotions override reason, often.

    That doesn't mean we have faculties of reason that are directed towards truth, just that these faculties don't always work towards their proper ends. Niether do stomachs or livers, or eyes, or photocopiers.

    God creates creatures that can act entirely freely within their natures. We can't fly to the moon, but we are still free since we can author our own actions.
  • Relativist
    3.1k
    The simple statement goes like: "I ask scientists how they are able to trust their theories without a belief in a purpose-driven evolution."PartialFanatic
    This sounds a lot like Plantinga's (flawed) evolutionary argument against atheism.

    If we are rational because we were purposefully directed, then we simply could not have had the capacity to be irrational.PartialFanatic
    Purposeful evolution may have only been directed toward faith in God. Rationality can be an obstacle to that.
  • T Clark
    14.8k
    Welcome to the forum.

    There is a great disagreement between the naturalist(-materialist)-atheists and theists about free will. The naturalist would go to lengths to argue for the evolutionary chain and deny free-will as life is caused deterministically. The materialist would deny any immaterial consciousness and lead again to the denial of free-will, in support of determinism.PartialFanatic

    I don't think this is true. As far as I can tell, worrying about whether or not we have free will is something only philosophers really think about, whatever their metaphysics. It's not that big an issue for most of us.

    We have a chain of evolutions directed towards a purpose. A single purpose because of which we are rational. Without this purposeful directing of our reason, we would not have a reasonable mind.PartialFanatic

    I don't see evolution as having a purpose or goal. I guess you could say it has a direction - toward greater complexity - but that's only because it started as the simplest organisms possible. It's a natural process that includes many random factors. The only criteria for an organism is that it has to survive to reproduce. Strong mentality, including rationality, is just one successful evolutionary strategy. The only ones who see humans as some sort of peak of evolution are humans.

    Put simply: free-will is only real if we have both the option to be rational and to be irrational. If we are rational because we were purposefully directed, then we simply could not have had the capacity to be irrational. Following this, one may concede to the argument that we do in fact have the capacity to be irrational despite being directed towards rationality.PartialFanatic

    Most human activity is neither rational nor irrational, it's non-rational.

    If we are rational, we must know the clear distinction between right and wrong.PartialFanatic

    I don't think this is true. There are fully rational people who think abortion is acceptable and other fully rational people who disagree.
  • PartialFanatic
    14
    Plantinga's (flawed) evolutionary argument against atheism.Relativist

    Oh, the above-quoted message is what I am trying to refute.
  • PartialFanatic
    14
    I don't see evolution as having a purpose or goal.T Clark

    Oh okay. I mean, you have a fundamental disagreement with the premise of the article. I did not author that premise, and it is what I am using to refute a sub-argument of it.
  • PartialFanatic
    14
    Most human activity is neither rational nor irrational, it's non-rational.T Clark

    Again, I think you are fundamentally disagreeing with the premise.
  • PartialFanatic
    14
    I don't think this is true. There are fully rational people who think abortion is acceptable and other fully rational people who disagree.T Clark

    that is per the defining characteristic of the premise: having trust in our rationality.
  • PartialFanatic
    14
    That doesn't mean we have faculties of reason that are directed towards truth, just that these faculties don't always work towards their proper ends.Bodhy

    Hmm, I mention a counter to this response in my article.

    Let us examine this more closely: In the case of a divine moral law above the human law which is considered objective, if we are conscious and rational so we can make both good and evil choices and at the same time trust our rationality, then we should never mix the two at all. Conclusively, anyone who appeals to the divine law must commit deeds knowing they are good or evil as one is conscious (having the freedom to choose good and evil deeds) and rational (having clear rational distinction between good and evil). If one commits an evil deed but calls it good, then clearly their rationality is clouded and they do not have access to this divine law. One may point out us as imperfect creatures with free-will, and as such not having access to the divine law as we may fall into temptation or sin. There may be an introduction of an ambiguous aspect. Perhaps, there is a divine purpose but it has not been realized completely: but would we really be rational then?PartialFanatic
  • T Clark
    14.8k
    Oh okay. I mean, you have a fundamental disagreement with the premise of the article. I did not author that premise, and it is what I am using to refute a sub-argument of it.PartialFanatic

    I wasn’t aware that your OP was specifically in response to an article written by someone else. I guess I missed something.
  • T Clark
    14.8k
    that is per the defining characteristic of the premise: having trust in our rationality.PartialFanatic

    We trust our rationality because it works, not always but often.
  • PartialFanatic
    14
    We trust our rationality because it works, not always but often.T Clark

    I would be glad if you could direct any other critiques towards the post, and not independent of it. That would be really helpful for me...... Thanks!
  • T Clark
    14.8k
    I would be glad if you could direct any other critiques towards the post, and not independent of it.PartialFanatic

    Alas, what you think is relevant is not always what I, or others, think. You'll have to learn to live with it. I went back and looked at my posts in this thread and don't see anything egregious. If you think I'm being disruptive, contact the moderators.
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