Agreed, though this seems incredibly short sighted on their part imo with the looming automation and AI revolution currently happening around us. We're headed for great depression style unemployment in the next few decades, and they're actively making the problem worse. How I wish we weren't ruled by clueless octogenarians. — MrLiminal

Not just that, but those migrants are going to get old too someday.

What is ironic is that many of the same people that vote for an octogenarian also label themselves as "progressive".

It's a difficult conclusion to come to in today's world, but I believe a necessary one. Too often the road to hell is paved with good campaign promises.

Get old without government support or proper cultural assimilation, at that. A recipe for disaster.

It's frustrating that the only progressive issues people seem to care about anymore are strictly social instead of class or economic.

That's not why Biden essentially allowed an open border to fester. The Biden admin wasn't that strategic. Many Democrats had come to believe the Trump admin's border policies were racist, and this led the online far left to reflexively oppose ANY immigration enforcement on Biden's part. The Biden admin thought they couldn't risk losing this segment of the party, so they let it define immigration policy, which turned out to be a mistake. — RogueAI

That is what I mean by group-hate as a product of political parties. Their hate of anyone that does not follow the party line clouds their judgement, and they often go by their own party's characterization of the opposition rather than actually making an effort to understand the opposition.

Hi, this is my first post!

I can't say I know much on the logistics of this topic, I can only speak on the morality of the situation - or lack thereof. I apologize beforehand if I'm missing anything of importance or if my sleep deprived mind scrambles things up.

In debates such as this, we must consider all sides of the argument. On one hand, there is good reason to get rid of illegal immigrants - to my understanding, most countries do as illegal immigration can be quite problematic for both the country of immigration and the citizens of said country (think of taxes and potential job loss). On the other hand, we must consider the reason behind said immigration, even if illegal. Mexico isn't the best of countries to live in, especially if you're of low social standing. Not everyone coming from Mexico is a dog eating rapist, some of them have legitimate reasons to come here, despite what others think of it (family members like fathers or older brothers will come here to work and then go back to Mexico to provide for their families because we have a better economy than they do).

Circumstance and consequence aside, we must also take into account what is happening to these illegal immigrants. Logically speaking, it'd make sense to send them back to Mexico, but then you have the argument that they may just come back. The next best thing then would be to find a way to keep them out then. This is why they are sent to a foreign prison. However, accounts of the prison's in El Salvador aren't flattering in the slightest, including "cases of torture, ill-treatment, incommunicado detention, severe violations of due process and inhumane conditions, such as lack of access to adequate healthcare and food", according to a Human Rights Watch report on the matter. We must also take into account, not everyone sent to CECOT is necessarily an illegal immigrant, there are legal citizens there - some of them being children (by the way, CECOT is technically an adult prison).

With matters of what is happening out of the way, what about what's not happening? First of all, people sent there wrongly are not being sent back. We are not getting much - if any - information on all that going on at CECOT. There's also a certain amount of double standard here. There are illegal immigrants that aren't from Mexico, South America, and Central America. There are a good 500,000 European illegal immigrants that aren't getting rounded up alongside their Hispanic counterparts.

I try to keep in mind that every situation has multiple sides, multiple faces. We each have a choice to pick a side to look at. What I've found in my analysis of this situation is that the only way people accept what's going on is they either don't know the full scope of the situation (understandable, there are people who don't pay attention to stuff like this because they find it depressing - there are also those who watch false news sources without even realizing), or they are informed and actively choose to ignore the warning signs and truth.

Something like this though, at the end of the day, is generally viewed as wrong and immoral. At the very least it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. If you know your history, you know what this looks like - and there are differences, sure, but this goes a bit too far to be looked at as something completely different than what the Nazis in the early days of and before the camps. Reasoning may be different, and there aren't mass killings - yet. But that doesn't make it right.


HRW report

Mostly agree. And remember how much of this is just political theatre. Trump made huge mileage out of the claim that undocumented immigrants are criminals and rapists - typical demagogue tactics. So now, making good on all that means casting the dragnet wide and getting the numbers up. Never mind that the whole world is going to hell in a hand basket - looks matter!

There are a good 500,000 European illegal immigrants that aren't getting rounded up alongside their Hispanic counterparts. — Samael Isn't

I don't know if it's true or just the ramblings of this administration, but....

(The Independent, 10th June 2025) Donald Trump’s administration is reportedly preparing to send thousands of illegal immigrants to the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as soon as this week, marking a rapid escalation of the president’s mass deportation agenda which could target hundreds of people from European allied countries.

Immigration officials are considering whether to transfer as many as 9,000 foreign nationals, including people from the United Kingdom as well as Ireland, Italy, France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Lithuania, Poland, Turkey and Ukraine, according to reporting from The Washington Post and Politico.

Officials are not expected to inform their home countries about their imminent transfers to the notorious facility, which opened in 2002 at the height of the War on Terror.

But at least there seems to be hope that Stephen Miller went simply too far by demanding the 3000 arrests per day quota, and ICE has to back down from random searches. So there are hopeful signs:



That the Trump administration gives out very confusing and opposing signals only shows the chaotic behavior of this dysfunctional administration.

Unfortunately that is the case. So much else could be being done, but the near single mindedness makes the rest of it fade from view. I've seen a lot of people comparing MAGA to a cult because of this, and I can't really blame them, Bethune - Cookman University defines cults as "social groups defined by their extreme religious, philosophical or spiritual beliefs focused on a particular personality, object or goal", and a quick Google search gives a list of different characteristics commonly held by cults:

- Having a leader who exerts significant influence and receives near unwavering loyalty.
-An "Us vs Them" mentality, as seen between MAGA and anyone that doesn't agree with them (such as democrats, liberals, the LGBTQ+ community, etc.).
-Isolation against friends, family, and/or outsiders. I'd say this ties into the "Us vs Them" mentality in this situation.
-Control over members, thoughts, actions, beliefs, and/or lives.
-Obedience from members.
-Manipulation of any kind.
-Financial exploitation, pretty much asking members to give up money and/or possessions.
-Suppression of doubt as seen when people who question Trump's ideas, actions, or agenda are silenced and/or ignored.
-Fear and paranoia. We could see early in Trump's campaign that he was spreading fear and paranoia, as you said with the immigrants. He's also ramped up fear, or at the very least more misunderstanding and/or hate against transgender people and the LGBTQ+ community.
-General abuse and exploitation of members

I can even go further as to say that what's happening isn't because of the democratic system in place. One would think that if we really wanted to, we could stop Trump by impeaching him at the very least. However, the issue with this is that he has the power. Trump came into office with an overall federal government trifecta - meaning he has Republicans in the majority of the House, Senate, and Supreme Court. I'm not saying that they'll all support him - not all Republicans are MAGA, but they may very well support his interests due to affiliation.

Hopefully this is the first of many moments they realize that things aren't being done quite right in the administration.

Reply to a Donald Trump thread. What makes you say they haven't been enforced?

Obama ~5.3 million 2009–2017
Trump 1 1.9–3.13 million 2017–2021
Biden >4.6 million 2021–2024

As long as the problem is fixed, I am willing to allow a lot. — MrLiminal

It's not clear what "the problem" is.

Is it crime?
But multiple studies and comprehensive data show that undocumented immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than native-born US citizens at the national, state and local levels. Incarceration rates confirm this pattern (1,221 per 100,000 vs. 613 per 100,000 in 2023).

Job displacement?
Illegal immigrants tend to fill low-wage, labor-intensive jobs that are unattractive. They may have a small negative wage effect but overall impact on employment and wages are either minimal or slightly positive due to additional growth and job creation through their own demand. Agriculture, construction and hospitaly heavily rely on immigrant labour (including undocmented workers).

Mooching of the state?
They tend to pay billions in taxes and not receive benefits. Fear of deportation discourages them from reporting crimes, seeking medical care or particiapting in civic life. Relating this to your mention of "robust social programs, job security in the face of automation/AI, social cohesion and UBI", we can rest assured we can have them pay for the privilege to remain without getting benefits.

What's left?

• Blatant racism. Highly probable for a significant part of Trump voters.
• Dems the rules. Formulaic but morally vacuous.

Feel free to add.

Hopefully this is the first of many moments they realize that things aren't being done quite right in the administration. — Samael Isn't

I think many government employees do realize how dysfunctional this administration is. It was surprising just how same the story was told during the last Trump administration by various commentators and reporters made out of it.

The simple fact is that Donald Trump is a great populist orator for his supporters, but a truly inept leader. His past failed businesses show this clearly. The only difference between this Trump administration and the previous administration is that this one is filled with lackeys and loyalists while the previous one did have Washington professional who tried to curb the most excesses of Trump. The fact is that Trump now will try to make his things, then fail, and then these failures are simply forgotten as the next crisis comes through the door.

And likely (hopefully) this is the outcome. Stephen Miller will get his ass kicked by the negative response to these kind of totally random operation on the street will have. I assume the ICE professionals do understand just how detrimental to the public image these kind of operations are, but naturally have to follow what the Trump crazies in the administration tell them to do.

The likeliest outcome is that ICE raids will tone down, be something not in your face but the normal operations that under previous administrations were done will prevail. And Trump's fantasies of deporting many millions of illegals will whimper and fade away just like the idea of Canada joining the US. Or the US annexing Greenland. People around Trump will just shut up about them and the discourse will be the next real crisis at hand.

The thing that is very consistent with Trump is that in the great dramatic things he wants to do, he will utterly fail in doing.

An "Us vs Them" mentality, as seen between MAGA and anyone that doesn't agree with them (such as democrats, liberals, the LGBTQ+ community, etc.). — Samael Isn't

You have to do some dilligence here: That is exactly how it looks from the otherside. Most people feel (and people like myself fall in here - who are decidedly left-wing in a box-ticking sense, and have never voted right of center in their lives) feel that there is a quite clear, and inarguable ideological situation in which disagreeing with any aspect of a rather complicated set of policy settings around LGBTQI+ etc... issues is somehow tantamount to being a disgusting bigot, and one must be ostracised, humiliated and made to feel as if they are somehow responsible for others mental health. Which is utter, abject horseshit and rests largely on the 'feelings' of some young, mentally unstable people.

So, I'm not dismissing that your take is hte case for those who take the ideology on hook-line-sinker. But for those who even tacitly disagree, there is some serious consequence mirroring fascist dictates far more readily than any disagreement with right-wing rhetoric seems to cause. That's a bit of a nuance convo though, as you're tyring to have about immigration specifically.

I never suggested they weren't. I think its hilarious that those numbers are what they are, yet we're pissing into the wind over Trump deporting X people. Obviously, his tactics are the issue so best to not make shit up about illegal immigrants rights to stay in the USA (others, not you).

I just do not accept your assertions, and I am beyond tired of hearing any opposition to illegal immigration as racist. The figures you are quoting are put out by the very people who stand to benefit from the system as it exists. If it's such a universal good, why was Greg Abbott able to bring the north to its knees with a few busses? It's to the point where I am forced to assume people use the accusation of racism only because there is no actual stronger argument below the surface, while they tacitly benefit from what is essentially an indentured servant class that disenfranchises local workers.

Also, "they commit fewer crimes," and "they are afraid of reporting crimes" seems contradictory.

I just do not accept your assertions, and I am beyond tired of hearing any opposition to illegal immigration as racist — MrLiminal

Just imagine how tired I am of people denying it when the proof is in the pudding. Funny how only Latinos are targeted no?

Funny how only Latinos are targeted no? — Benkei

Yep.

When I googled images "ICE going after Latino people", I got this photo:


When I googles images "ICE going after Dutch people", I got this photo:


Either the algorithms have to learn more, or Dutch people aren't really targeted by ICE. :wink:

I will admit, I get a bit heated on this topic due to prior experiences, so I would like to be more fair. I don't like that racists are getting off on this, and I do think the current administration is taking things too far. I didn't vote for them either. I just don't see any good options going forward on this issue, but I am willing to hear alternative solutions. So often the alternative just feels like advocating for an underclass, which hardly seems better.

There are no other good options. Anything else involves due process and figuring out of those illegal individuals which have committed offences great enough to warrant being barred or removed from our nation. That is never going to happen.

So we are only left to take people off the streets and in our homes if they are suspected of at most merely not having the right paper work. I'm not talking about gang members or those who evade taxes. I'm talking about those whose only difference between you and them is that they don't have a citizenship; that is it. Quick results require blunt tactics which is what ICE is providing.

Morality or precise legislation was never meant to come into these sorts of discussions which is the fallacy that those other individuals in this thread are propagating.

It's also rather disingenuous of you to start shouting out this mantra of, ". . . but it's not the party I voted for!" Even though you and I in being in this nation are in some respect culpable of whatever pain/suffering that follows if we sit idle. Best to make your piece with the inevitable and blunt tactics of the current party in a stoic fashion.

If you really thought that. . .

. . . I do think the current administration is taking things too far. — MrLiminal

Then you wouldn't be posting here and neither would I.

As I noted, Trump's policies are wild. I am not defending them. But that doesn't mean the responses is any better. "no one is illegal" and "look how violent I can be" don't work, and never have. — AmadeusD

There you go with your moral virtue signally again just as @Benkei. If you and the responses from 'them' aren't cutting it then you are accepting the terms of what the current administration have put out for how they are going to deal with this.

Protests, riots, and this moral grandstanding is without substance. Perhaps we are then only left with a form of accelerationism which already seems rather well instated.

I've written two substantive posts and make reasonable conclusions. Idiot walks by and calls it "virtue signalling" without any argument. Thanks for playing.

You're welcome to add what the problem is you think should be solved. My "feel free to add" was an invitation to come up with reasons to support what Trump is doing that are good reasons. So far, I don't see good reasons for deporting undocumented immigrants that are part of society and benefit the US as a whole. Criminals, for instance, were deported already.

Mostly when I say too far I mean they are using showy but ineffective methods by only going after individuals (and sometimes getting it wrong) instead of the ones hiring and transporting them. I'm also not crazy about giving the Feds even more power. But also, what do you want me to do, start a revolution by myself over something I'm mixed on? I may not fully agree with how it's being done, but part of me is glad *something* is being done. My feelings are ultimately somewhat conflicted, but that usually just gives people an avenue to discredit you on the internet.



I feel like I answered that already by saying I did not agree with the assessment that illegal immigration is harmless. There are many knock-on effects that aren't always apparent but are obvious to anyone that has lived with it. A good example is education: no one is being served well by having a glut of students in public school who do not speak the native language that divert already thin attention and resources. The immigrant students will almost always lag behind due to the difficulty of the language barrier, and it further increases already large classroom sizes with students who need special resources to learn. I have seen it first hand, both as a student and as an adult working alongside education. And again, if it's such a universal benefit, why was Abbott's bus campaign the most effective political stunt in decades?

I feel like I answered that already by saying I did not agree with the assessment that illegal immigration is harmless. There are many knock-on effects that aren't always apparent but are obvious to anyone that has lived with it. A good example is education: no one is being served well by having a glut of students in public school who do not speak the native language that divert already thin attention and resources. The immigrant students will almost always lag behind due to the difficulty of the language barrier, and it further increases already large classroom sizes with students who need special resources to learn. I have seen it first hand, both as a student and as an adult working alongside education. And again, if it's such a universal benefit, why was Abbott's bus campaign the most effective political stunt in decades? — MrLiminal

The concern about strains on public services, like schools, is a reasonable one. Rapid demographic changes can place pressure on institutions that are already underfunded or poorly managed. In education specifically, accommodating students who are not fluent in the native language does require additional resources: ESL teachers, individualized learning plans, etc. If those resources aren’t available or are spread too thin, both immigrant and native-born students can suffer. That’s a real issue, especially in under-resourced communities.

But that said, this concern is not unique to undocumented immigration. Refugees, documented immigrants and even internal migration (e.g. families moving from poorer to wealthier districts) can have similar effects. So the policy question becomes: is the problem the presence of undocumented immigrants, or the lack of adequate investment and planning in public infrastructure?

This is where things get more difficult. Let’s assume the worry is valid: classroom overcrowding, limited resources, unequal outcomes. The question is then whether deportation resolves this problem in a fair, effective or proportionate way.

Here are a few counterpoints to consider:

Systemic underfunding is the deeper issue. Many public schools are overwhelmed even in areas with low immigration. Removing immigrants doesn’t solve the political failure to fund education adequately. It simply scapegoats a visible population for a structural problem.

Educational investment in immigrant children pays long-term dividends. Children are not a burden indefinitely; many go on to become tax-paying adults, often outperforming peers once language barriers are overcome. Deporting them interrupts that process and increases long-term costs (both economic and moral).

Deportation is a blunt instrument. It doesn’t target those who are demonstrably harming public institutions. It removes people, including long-settled families, children born or raised in the country and productive members of society, based on legal status alone, not impact. That raises ethical and practical concerns.

You’re right that Abbott's buses were a highly effective political stunt in terms of media attention. But political success doesn’t equate to policy wisdom. It “worked” in the sense that it forced liberal cities to confront their rhetoric with real logistical challenges—but it also highlighted the failure of coordinated federal response and treated vulnerable people as props in a political game. That it was effective doesn’t mean it proved anything about the harms or benefits of immigration.

It’s fair to worry about real-world consequences of immigration. But to justify deportation, we’d need to show that it solves more problems than it creates, does so fairly and addresses the root causes of institutional strain. More often, deportation treats symptoms while ignoring systemic failures.

The difference is we can control and monitor the number and distribution of refugees and legal immigrants. And no, I disagree about the education angle. Often those children end up disrupting education (sometimes through no fault of their own), barely passing through school, learning just enough English to get by and then continuing the cycle with the next generation that now grows up stuck between two cultures and with little to no appreciation for assimilation or education. I saw far too many classroom where the 3-6 Spanish language students were relegated to back of the class. The teachers usually either end up letting them do whatever until they have time for them, or spends the majority of class catering to them over the 20-30 other students. There are success stories, but for the most part it just seems to result in generational ghettos that, again, just makes them an easily exploitable underclass. You have still not addressed that concern.

I also disagree on your assessment of the bus campaign. It worked because northern cities got a tiny taste of the issues the south has been dealing with for decades, and it nearly broke them. The fact that they changed their tune so quickly with only a fraction of the problem coming their way should show that this IS in fact a major problem and racism is not the primary factor.

I would also argue this is fixing systemic failures, as we have allowed this to be a problem since at least the 80s. People have been trying to take the compassionate route since before I was born and it's only made it worse. I do not believe we ever have to justify deporting people who are here illegally, and the fact that you think we do means we will probably not agree on this.

come up with reasons to support what Trump is doing that are good reasons — Benkei

People are not crossing the border into the United States by taking a bus to Nuevo Laredo and strolling across the bridge to Texas.

In many cases they have paid traffickers to deliver them to somewhere along the border, and then it is up to the migrant to figure out how to get the rest of the way. A lot of the territory along the US-Mexican border is hot, dry, and sparsely populated. One can get stranded and die fairly easily. A similar situation exists for migrants attempting to get to Europe or from France to the UK.

True enough, the US is a ready market for the labor of illegal aliens created by employers who want cheap. exploitable, expendable labor. It may be that cut-rate pay scales in the US are better than where they came from, but it is easier to hire "gut suckers" in poultry slaughter plants among aliens than among Americans. It isn't that Americans don't want to work (as conservative Americans are fond of saying): it's that Americans don't want to work at substandard wages in dangerous working conditions with no benefits, no protection, and no security. Campbell Soup used to employ Americans as gut suckers (nobody thought it was a great job) before millions of illegal aliens arrived.

Exploitated illegal workers on hog and beef disassembly lines, run a higher speeds now than they were formerly, can expect to be injured seriously at least once a year unless they are lucky. Workmen's compensation? Nope--not covered. Disability coverage? Nope. Health insurance? There's the local E. R.

Hospitals are required to provide care in Emergency Rooms. That doesn't mean they are compensated for the care. Free care drives up operating costs; driven up high enough, and the ER service will be closed to protect the hospital as a whole.

Granted, illegal immigrants have established themselves as valuable workers in the economy--especially valuable because they are low paid, exploited, lack most protections legal immigrants and citizens receive, and are expendable. No unemployment costs to pay!