Secondly, the point originally being made about Crisp is a moral claim (hence the words "fear and resentment"), and yet the people who tend to make such claims also tend to deny moral realism, which logically takes all the sting out of their reproach. ...It's remarkable to me that on TPF moral realism is so thoroughly repelled that members regularly fail to provide any rational justification for prohibiting even the most grievous offenses, such as the slave trade, but on the other hand this has been par for the philosophical course for centuries. — Leontiskos

I’m don't know if there are moral facts or if morality is grounded in anything beyond emotional responses, perhaps emotivism is correct, of which, presumably, there are more and less defensible versions.

Interesting you see Crisp as making a moral claim. I didn’t think of it like this. I think the idea that people fear and resent 'the strange' is human nature. I know I do. I don’t consider this to be located in a specific moral framework, more a vague aesthetic/emotional one or one wherein we find ourselves unable to make sense of something. I also don't know if Crisp is right in his view. It seemed like an interesting position to raise in the context of the discussion, since it tackled tolerance differently.

:wink:

So we have the supposed paradox of tolerance; that the left, in advocating "tolerance", is hypocritical in not tolerating the right - in not tolerating intolerance.

One way to view this is as confusing tolerance with acceptance. In this usage, to tolerate is roughly to refrain from using coercion, while to accept is to place the account in the domain of public discussion.

The left can coherently tolerate the more extreme views of those on the right without accepting them.

Why not accept them? Popper's response is well-known, even if the attribution might be lost. To accept intolerance is to undermine the broader ethic of tolerance. It's not hypocrisy but consistency. On this account intolerance might be tolerated, but certainly not accepted.

I was trying to draw a broad sharp line between those who support institutions even if they often suck and those who want to shake the Etch a Sketch upside down. I am not aware of any of the former kind who subscribe to the purely emotional view you propose to be a significant factor in political discourse. — Paine

Somewhere in between we have Popper's ad hoc social engineering, piecemeal improvement. Small, testable reforms, improving society step by step while avoiding catastrophic overreach.

But is that enough?

I figure education is captured by an ongoing cultural war. From that point of view, any program put forward is not only a policy proposal but an attempt to vanquish some other view.

Noticing that development is not the same as understanding it.

It is not enough to note that some people seek their advantage.

One strategy in that culture war has been the denigration of the term "liberal". It's odd, since if we scratch most folk, outside of religious traditions, their core values will be classically liberal: Individual freedom, the rule of law, equality before that law, protection of rights and liberties and so on.

These are what lead to tolerance, and to acceptance, as much as vice versa.

So we might accept that others live lives quite divergent from our own, on the condition that they do not obligate us to do as they do. Acceptance of divergent lives does not imply agreement or obligation. This maintains moral consistency: one can uphold their own values while ethically recognising the legitimacy of other ways of living.

Will ponder. I do not have a snappy response.

I have had a different experience.

My family fought on both sides of our Civil War in the U.S. The choices between what is acceptable or not is worked out each day wherever we are. Education of children is critical to what happens next.

I don't see how your disagreements with people bear upon the matter. — Paine

I don't know how any of that pertains to the topic, or what it even means, but can you answer my question now?

I am willing to address that — Paine

Are you asking me to explain what I said without reference to what I just said?

If the context I put forward is not germane to the discussion, it is difficult for me to imagine what is.