Look at the part that I bolded.
Are you saying, like I have been saying, that the good itself is not why people steal?
You say that the good could be almost anything. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Do you mean the choice to steal or the choice of what to steal? — WISDOMfromPO-MO
But what role does a tangible economic good, G, play in the choice to steal?
Is it that G causes people to steal and anybody who has never stolen anything simply has not encountered the G that will make him/her do it?
Or is it, as I believe, that G plays absolutely no role in the decision to steal and at the most plays a role in deciding what to steal?
Or something in between? — WISDOMfromPO-MO
If something possesses no value then it is not an economic good and is outside of the scope of this discussion. Maybe there's a discussion somewhere in Metaphysic & Epistemology about such a thing. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that stealing the plans is only a means to the end of the good cause, and thus not the end itself. This is true, but then again, this also applies to stealing money does it not? Nobody steals money for the sake of keeping money, but always as a means to purchasing other things. So just as money acquires value as a means to purchase other goods, so do the nazi plans acquire value as a means to another good, like ending the war. — Samuel Lacrampe
It is true that if there is no end, then the means to that end becomes obsolete. But back to your original question about if there is something worth stealing, are you saying that it is not worth stealing the plans from the nazis, even if it would serve to end the war? — Samuel Lacrampe
Your argument about extrinsic vs intrinsic is moot since it is already a given that spy's in a war are not trying to steal the paper and ink that is used to create a document otherwise they would be targeting Office Depot or Staples instead of the Germans. The same is true of all thieves since money is also merely just ink and specially made paper and even a hungry person isn't going to steal a loaf of bread for it's "intrinsic qualities/properties" and just look at the thing but instead for it's "extrinsic" value of it serving to end their hungry..." — dclements
All your doing is stating the obvious and creating a form of begging the question fallacy in order to avoid the problem posed by me and other forum members as to why you think it is "ok" or "good" for some people to steal (and/or commit similar crimes) but not for others... — dclements
All your arguments so far seem to suggest you are trying to argue in support of some kind of objective morality (since you constantly suggesting you have no problem if people steal for some "social good") and reject the notion that people who seem to be stealing for their own selfish reason's could in any way be operating from a moral paradigm that is in any way be just as credible as the people you are praising for stealing from the "greater good". — dclements
I agree with ↪dclements when he says that even money has no intrinsic value and only has extrinsic value as a means for exchange of other goods... — Samuel Lacrampe
The question is thus, what good can you think of that has any intrinsic value? It seems that me that all tangible things that can be stolen only serve as a means to a greater end, ends such as pleasure, necessity (like surviving) or ethics. — Samuel Lacrampe
There is such a vast variety of reasons of why people steal (and/or commit actions that are the same as stealing but we call it something else) that it could be difficult to answer that question if you "really have no idea whatsoever of why people steal" and me being a person who grew up in projects as a kid it is fairly easy to understand why some people do it. Some of the reasons including for fun, to get something they want or need, or for social/peer/gang approval.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dreaming-freud/201408/why-do-people-steal
http://www.healthline.com/health/stealing#overview1
From a philosophical standpoint, all you have to do is either have a decent understanding of human condition or some understanding of hedonistic calculus, pragmatism, Machiavellianism,etc (ie some of the basic theories to explain ethics and human behavior that have been around for hundreds of years) to have some idea why it is done.
In nature, animals will often steal food from each other whenever they can and through out human history, tribes or countries have been willing to take whatever they can from others through force and the only thing that usually stops this is the threat of force if such actions are taken. However even when the threat of force is present some will try to take things through guile instead of force (although on a personal level they can also be just about the same thing) and perhaps the only thing stopping this kind of theft (or than force itself) is either people are are content enough with what they have or they are indoctrinated not to steal but I'm pretty sure even these measures do not prevent it from ever happening.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felicific_calculus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellianism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_condition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nature — dclements
But when you ask "why do people steal" when there is "some many other ALTERNATIVES to stealing" you are framing your question within a moral framework whether you like it or not; even if you are doing you best not to make to too obvious which it still is anyways.
If you really did think that it wasn't either ok, good, bad, wrong, etc. then the issue would be as relevant to you as to why little Timmy prefers strawberry ice-cream to vanilla ice-cream (or vice versa as the case may be) and it would a given that your question in your OP wouldn't any more relevant to the topic of philosophy then any child's preference in ice-cream.
BTW, what do you mean by "intrinsic value" other than the mere potential monetary value? If that is mean there are nearly countless instances of where people have either tricked or taken things by force from others and profited from it. During the period of colonialism North and South America (as well as other continents and land) where taken from the native people in order to make the people taking them rich or make them richer than they already where. There are entire criminal organizations such as the Mafia and Yakuza who operate and are founded on the principles of selling drug, racketeering, stealing, murder, etc and you are honestly trying to say that it is impossible (or at least impossible according to your point of view) for someone want to steal in order to acquire some kind of "intrinsic value"? I believe you are either using "intrinsic value" different then what might be conventionally used, or that you have absolutely "zero" understanding of human behavior/psychology 101 when it comes to criminal behavior and/or people who might be pressed to performing the same actions as one, or you perhaps you are deliberately just being obtuse — dclements
Obviously either you come from a very privileged life where you have never had to want for anything beg, work minimum wage jobs,etc., etc., or you just pretending like you have no idea of and just pretending to be so naive. While I shouldn't try to pretend why you are doing it, to be honest it is pretty insulting to me (and very likely other people like me who may have not had it so easy) that someone could even SUGGEST that EVERYONE in such situations should find it easy to beg and grovel for whatever spare change someone might toss at them. For one thing it is very, very demeaning for someone to resort to begging and the other issue is that begging often doesn't work (not to mention the health hazards for beggars could be potentially more dangerous than even those who get what they need from stealing).
I don't know if your just deliberately being obtuse or you merely have the "misfortune" of having a very privilege /sheltered life and have never as they say had to "walked a mile in their shoes" in order to give you some perspective of how other people have had to live and go about their lives and understand what they really go through.
Also as a side note, there is psychological/social theory known as the "1% rule" which means that 1% of society are from a psychological perspective much more incline to commit criminal act than the rest of the population (ie. who supposedly only do so if they are under duress or similar conditions) and this "1%" makes criminal activity more common among the population than it really is. I not sure what the actual numbers are but when you figure it is somewhat rational to believe that 1% of the population is precondition for criminal behavior and a number of potential "normal" people who are not one of them but are under enough duress to be willing to consider criminal activity under the right conditions, and all you need is to let them have a chance to intermingle with the rest of society, and you have an your example or examples of why people steal for "intrinsic" or whatever other value they do it for. — dclements
That really isn't true since most currencies in use today are merely FIAT CURRENCY and not backed up by gold, silver, or anything else for that matter. The banks that print money for the US, and most other governments, merely back up there currency for awhile (with the Euro for a time, they backed it up by holding one US dollar in their vaults for each Euro they printed) and after some time after the currency becomes accepted they just start printing money which isn't backed by anything at all. While there may be an several advantages of fiat money, the disadvantage is that you CAN NEVER RETURN THEM TO THE BANK AND HAVE THEM RETURN ANYTHING WITH INTRINSIC VALUE SUCH AS GOLD OR SILVER, which you use to be able to when we use to use non-fiat currencies such as the silver back dollar bills..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money
So in the end paper money is virtually the same mere "quantities reported on an account statement" other than you are able to use them to help settle private debts without having to use of credit cards, etc and go through a bank and/or electronic process to resolve such debts. Although there are things like Bitcoin which in many ways allows people to use virtual currency (which itself isn't backed up by anything) to resolve private and/or black market debts as well almost just as well; which is a lot harder to do without paper money... — dclements
The problem you are speaking from YOUR perspective/opinion and arguing under the context that it is a GIVEN that there is some kind of OBJECTIVE MORALITY... — dclements
I don't know if you ever hear of David Hume, but one of his famous quotes is "you can't get an ought from an is", and that is exactly what you are trying to do in your argument... — dclements
even though the "is" part (ie the facts meant to back up your position) are so messed up I wouldn't even know where to begin with it... — dclements
Whether you know or like it, PEOPLE STEAL ALL THE TIME/EVERY DAY THROUGHOUT HISTORY AND HAVE PROFITED FROM SUCH ACTIONS... — dclements
Your assuming there is some kind of "justice" system in place that punish all thieves for ALL of their actions,... — dclements
however in the bigger picture of things I'm guessing most thieves can justify most of their actions and are in no way as eaten up by their conscience as either you think they are and/or that you think they should be... — dclements
I think someone pointing their gun at the head of either them or one of their family would likely do it. I don't know whether you are ruling out such people as you are ruling out the criminally insane and/or inclined to commit such crimes but when you rule out BOTH people who do it UNDER DURESS AND BECAUSE THEY LIKE TO, it is a given that you are taking out nearly anyone who would want to perform ANY ACTION... — dclements
I mean what person would want to WORK if they COULD just WISH for SOMETHING and get it?... — dclements
Work is called "work" because one does it whether or not they always want to do it because someone pays them to do the thing they don't or can't do themselves. I'm pretty sure there are people who would rather steal stuff (if they can get away with it) then have to work for someone else and have to deal with them while performing such tasks... — dclements
While it is likely that people most people have to work are not under the same duress as those who steal and/or commit similar crimes, I believe it is safe to say they are under some duress that is not completely differ from those who steal... — dclements
So if we take out ALL people who are NOT "RATIONAL ACTORS" (ie criminals, and the criminally insane are not rational actors according to society),... — dclements
and we take out everyone who is DOING IT JUST FOR FUN (ie kids, bored rich people), and we also take out everyone who is doing it UNDER DURESS (ie working class Joe's and Jane's who need a buck and don't have can't earn it and/or under the threatened with body harm to make them steal),... — dclements
the only people we are possibly left with are robber barons/king of thieves type people who may already have enough that they don't need to steal but since they fit under the spectrum "not rational", either doing it just for fun or because they are under duress (which such people it could be either given the circumstances) they are excluded as well... — dclements
Also according to your definition such people CAN'T EXIST (ie. impossible for people to profit by stealing), or what they do isn't technically "stealing" to you even if it is the same thing to others... — dclements
I think I covered this somewhere, but I'm not sure. I've started getting a headache from thinking to much so it is getting more difficult to continue writing and thinking about this. At any rate what your saying is debatable since a large part of what western civilization is today was by "acquiring" (ie. often through outright theft and/or murder) land and other good from other societies that existed hundreds of years ago. The term "Manifest Destiny" is a concept that created to justify/sugar coat the fact that in order for Europeans acquire the easy land and wealth they had to often take it from the natives/squatters who where using it at the time; and of course through force and murder if and when it needed to be done.
Manifest Destiny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny
Also I believe you should watch a video called "Why poverty?" which talks about both how Manifest Destiny/Colonization was used to rob people of whatever wealth people had in North/South America, and Africa AND how (and implied by the video) the VAST DIFFERENCE between RICH and POOR is a BIGGER social problem AND the LEVERAGE the RICH use AGAINST the POOR/WORKING CLASS is not much different then STEALING ITSELF.
Poor Us: an animated history - Why Poverty?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxbmjDngois — dclements
If there was nothing worth stealing then how would you get people to do work and/or anything else they may not want to do? Without the blood,sweat, and tears of the working plebs and the monopoly paper being printed by the wealthy use in exchange for it what incentive would there be for someone to take out trash/ clean toilets/ and do any of the nearly INFINITE other unfun tasks that seem to be needed to be done?
In the book/movie Clockwork Orange, they is an example of what might happen if criminals and/or those criminally inclined where put through something have been called "reeducation programs" by other countries and I think the results were mixed at best. I'm not saying it can't be done but I think it is safe to say there is moral implications for those who try to implement them and as well as those who are forced to go through them as well. — dclements
I think someone pointing their gun at the head of either them or one of their family would likely do it. I don't know whether you are ruling out such people as you are ruling out the criminally insane and/or inclined to commit such crimes but when you rule out BOTH people who do it UNDER DURESS AND BECAUSE THEY LIKE TO, it is a given that you are taking out nearly anyone who would want to perform ANY ACTION...
— dclements — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Ok, now we may be getting somewhere. :)Criminals make rational calculations just like non-criminals do.
They may even be more rational in that sense. It probably requires a lot more information gathering and processing to successfully shoplift than it does to make a purchase at a cash register. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
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