Noble Dust the prophet.

Maybe ya'll will finally come around to all of my hair-brained mystical psuedo-philosophy now that I've proved my supernatural powers... :P >:O

Maybe ya'll will finally come around to all of my hair-brained mystical psuedo-philosophy now that I've proved my supernatural powers... :P >:O — Noble Dust

Well I was always a fan of your hair-brained mystical pseudo-philosophy, so that's not much of a change for me :P

(Y) *returns to crystal ball*

The progressive/liberal labeling means so little these days. I'd like to think that I'm both a liberal and a progressive, like an FDR or Woodrow Wilson, but not like a Clinton or a Sanders or a Thanatos "you're a racist!" Sand. Strangely, I'd argue that even the conservatives of a hundred years ago were closer in political philosophy to their liberal counterparts than liberals today are to liberals then.

Thorongil and Augustino said racist things and stood by them. So, I correctly called them "racists." Since you have a problem with that, I'm glad you don't want to be like me; I certainly don't want to be like you.

Conservatives want things like reduced spending for ideological reasons. I would want them for practical reasons. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

I don't understand how you can say that a conservative view of spending is ideological and whereas your view is practical. Can you explain?

Thorongil and Augustino said racist things and stood by them. So, I correctly called them "racists." Since you have a problem with that, I'm glad you don't want to be like me; I certainly don't want to be like you. — Thanatos Sand

I never read anything racist by either of them, and I never read any evidence by you showing that they were and are racist. Perhaps I missed those evidences?

I showed very well the racist things they said and why they were so. If you didn't see them, you either read the thread poorly or share their racist views and are racist, yourself.

Either way, I'm not impressed and have no more reason to read any more of your posts on this thread.

I showed very well the racist things they said and why they were so. — Thanatos Sand

I don't think so. Could you direct me to the back and forth where you do so, please?

If you didn't see them, you either read the thread poorly — Thanatos Sand

Perhaps, I don't know, that's why I'm asking you for clarification.

or share their racist views and are racist, yourself. — Thanatos Sand

Who gets to decide who is and isn't racist here. You?

Either way, I'm not impressed. — Thanatos Sand

I'm not looking to impress anyone, just looking for evidence and clarification.

I don't understand how you can say that a conservative view of spending is ideological and whereas your view is practical. Can you explain? — praxis

Doing good financial housekeeping and eliminating unnecessary expenses is not the same thing as saying that discretionary spending over a certain % of GDP is evil, that government spending limits economic growth, that the money the government is spending is stolen and should be given back to citizens through tax cuts and spending cuts, that taxing wealthy people and spending on poor people is being Robin Hood, etc.

If money is being spent on glossy printer paper that is never used, that expense should be eliminated, don't you think?

Since when is maintaining a lean budget an ideological position?

The progressive/liberal labeling means so little these days. I'd like to think that I'm both a liberal and a progressive, like an FDR or Woodrow Wilson, but not like a Clinton or a Sanders or a Thanatos "you're a racist!" Sand. Strangely, I'd argue that even the conservatives of a hundred years ago were closer in political philosophy to their liberal counterparts than liberals today are to liberals then. — Buxtebuddha

Can you illustrate that?

What is a concrete example of a conservative and liberal then being closer than a liberal then and a liberal today? New Nationalism vs. New Freedom?

I showed very well the racist things they said and why they were so. — Thanatos Sand

Want some vanilla ice-cream? >:O

Doing good financial housekeeping and eliminating unnecessary expenses... — WISDOMfromPO-MO

I believe it's debatable what constitutes necessary and unnecessary, and that the determining factors center around personal and cultural values. Norwegians, for example, apparently believe that universal healthcare and free higher education is necessary.

Since when is maintaining a lean budget an ideological position? — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Since your ideal of a lean budget first sprang to life, I imagine.

Can you illustrate that?

What is a concrete example of a conservative and liberal then being closer than a liberal then and a liberal today? New Nationalism vs. New Freedom? — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Depends on how far back you want to go. Obviously an Abe Lincoln and FDR are more similar than a Trump and Clinton in domestic policy. Even Teddy and FDR were more alike than current candidates are. Look at all the ways that Teddy fought for increased financial regulation, health regulation, preservation of land through the park service - these are just a few tenants shared by supposed modern liberals with a Republican, and conservative, president just a hundred years ago. Meanwhile his supposed conservative descendant in Trump, and really any of the prior Republican candidates, want to strip up regulations, don't care about FDA law, and by and large don't care about the environment.

I believe it's debatable what constitutes necessary and unnecessary, and that the determining factors center around personal and cultural values. Norwegians, for example, apparently believe that universal healthcare and free higher education is necessary... — praxis

Fortunately, if city government offices are spending money on printer paper that is not necessary for doing business that expense could be eliminated and taxpayers of all personal and cultural values would approve.

Since your ideal of a lean budget first sprang to life, I imagine. — praxis

You mean eliminating from budgets unnecessary expense like useless printer paper is my original idea?

You mean eliminating from budgets unnecessary expense like useless printer paper is my original idea? — WISDOMfromPO-MO

If someone strives to maintain a lean budget then clearly their ideal is a lean budget.

If you're still not sure where you sit on the liberal/conservative spectrum you might try a test like this one.

Judging by the things you've said in this topic I'd guess that you're a bit left of center.

If someone strives to maintain a lean budget then clearly their ideal is a lean budget... — praxis

It would be a means to an end, not an ideal to be realized or maintained.

The desired end is what matters and what dictates the appropriate action.

If ideals are to be found anywhere it would be in the desired ends, such as good financial health.

If you're still not sure where you sit on the liberal/conservative spectrum you might try a test like this one.

Judging by the things you've said in this topic I'd guess that you're a bit left of center. — praxis

I try to not even think in terms of the binaries that things like that test do.

To me governing would be about identifying problems that can be solved and then using my authority to marshal and mobilize resources to find and implement solutions to those problems. I would be a facilitator living on the same level as the people I am serving and working with them on practical matters, not someone with privilege overseeing his subjects from above and producing top-down policy in conformity with theoretical language embedded in some ideology.

I guess a word that would characterize my approach to leading and governing would be non-conformist.

If ideals are to be found anywhere it would be in the desired ends, such as good financial health. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

A lean budget or good financial health do not in themselves express good leadership or a healthy populace. For instance, it may cost less to privatize the prison system but in doing so it may create an incentive to incarcerate citizens, which could lead to an increase in the prison population. In addressing the issue of crime and punishment, an alternative solution may be to spend on providing free higher education, which could reduce crime, and with increased workforce productivity raise revenue. That could offset the cost of the higher education and lead to a healthier country.

I suppose my general point is that these issues are not straightforward or even particularly rational because people are not particularly rational.

To me governing would be about identifying problems that can be solved and then using my authority to marshal and mobilize resources to find and implement solutions to those problems. I would be a facilitator living on the same level as the people I am serving and working with them on practical matters, not someone with privilege overseeing his subjects from above and producing top-down policy in conformity with theoretical language embedded in some ideology. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

There's a difference between a leader and a facilitator. A leader may have a vision and a plan for a better future and have the capacity to rally support for that future. A facilitator might merely facilitate whatever vision or plan the emergent leader (in the absence of one a leader always emerges) provides. That plan could be great and lead to a better future for the people, or it could simply be the clandestine acquisition of personal wealth and power.

I try to not even think in terms of the binaries that things like that [Political Typology] test do. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

I believe the U.S. is currently far too polarized but that's no reason to ignore our own values, even if that were possible.

A lean budget or good financial health do not in themselves express good leadership or a healthy populace... — praxis

That is why I said that I would look for ways. I did not say that anything is fundamentally the right way to lead or govern. I said that I would be looking for opportunities to make budgets healthier, like government at every level is supposed to do. Here are my exact words:

I would be looking for ways to cut costs, cut waste, cut spending, reduce debt, etc., so I doubt that any conservative would play the "unregulated free market" card against me. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Things like a city or state's credit score must be maintained. A bad credit score could mean higher interest rates and less money to spend on things like education. Therefore, if money spent on copier paper that never gets used could instead be spent on loan payments, that would probably be a good idea.

I suppose my general point is that these issues are not straightforward or even particularly rational because people are not particularly rational... — praxis

Therefore, putting oneself in a "conservative" or "progressive" box severely limits what can be accomplished.

I believe the U.S. is currently far too polarized but that's no reason to ignore our own values, even if that were possible. — praxis

From the United States Constitution:

"Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Notice that it does not say anything about "conservative", "moderate", "progressive", etc.

There's a difference between a leader and a facilitator. A leader may have a vision and a plan for a better future and have the capacity to rally support for that future. A facilitator might merely facilitate whatever vision or plan the emergent leader (in the absence of one a leader always emerges) provides. That plan could be great and lead to a better future for the people, or it could simply be the clandestine acquisition of personal wealth and power. — praxis

In other words, the leader could delegate facilitating to other people in his administration or do the facilitating himself. The latter would be my leadership style.