Let's talk like different (and differing) equals, rather than fighting like high-minded superhero warriors. Hopefully, it is not too late for that. — 0 thru 9

People may be equal, but their ideas aren't. Were we discussing people or ideas on this forum?

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
-E. Rosevelt

I've been following the spat between @Sapientia and @ArguingWAristotleTiff for quite a while and have spoken to them both about it by PM. I see it mainly as a personal issue between two people who have known each other for a long time. As a moderating team moderating ourselves, we could disallow that type of thing when it involves a moderator or we could make it clear that a moderator is subject to the same guidelines as other posters and not step in unless the guidelines are breached. We've taken the latter approach with the hope that moderators would of their own accord be as productive as possible in their relationships with other posters (knowing that not one of us has lived up to that all of the time). I'd still like to hear a more focused argument from you about where we are going wrong and what exactly you think we should do about it.

There's very little we delete in Feedback (and other off-topic) discussions. As far as I can see, Sap's passive aggressive insults are no worse than those of non-mods (which also haven't been deleted). It's really only the egregious stuff that gets removed. — Michael

I am absolutely not asking for anything in this thread to be deleted. In this case it would amount to tampering with the evidence and a cover up. What I would like is thoughtful, considered responses rather than more bickering and insults from the mods. Believe me, I know what a trying, thankless task it is dealing with bloody philosopher-posters, and you all have my sympathy, and gratitude. But you also get my stern criticism, I'm afraid.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
-E. Rosevelt

I don't agree with Eleanor. Oscar Wilde said, “It is only shallow people who do not judge by appearances. The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible....”

I've been following the spat between Sapientia and @ArguingWAristotleTiff for quite a while and have spoken to them both about it by PM. I see it mainly as a personal issue between two people who have known each other for a long time — Baden

Baden, it's not a "spat" and I have in thread attempted to begin the healing with Sapientia, in my wanting to find our way back to where we were but his answering my in thread overture in private is an indicator as to where Sapientia sits on this healing process.

Sapientia
I do wish to put this clash of egos to rest and try to move back to us walking on the same absurd side of the street that we once walked down together. I wish to call you my fine feathered friend again. My efforts will be focused on that and we will see where that takes us. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

It's all water under the bridge, anyway. It's flowing away from us as we speak. In fact, it's almost as though the less we speak, the faster it flows. — Sapientia

For his PM is quite different than this note to everybody in thread.

If it is okay for moderators to speak in a condescending attitude towards the members, then it is what it is.

And Sapientia is quite right in saying that " it's almost as though the less we speak, the faster it flows".

The less we speak..... :-x

I'd still like to hear a more focused argument from you about where we are going wrong and what exactly you think we should do about it. — Baden

Ok, I'll have a go.You'll have to excuse a bit of pontification.

Moderators should be drawn from the best of the members, both in terms of their philosophical knowledge and clarity of posting, and their behaviour in terms of the guidelines. Generally, I would be looking for posters who defuse rather than escalate, for grace under fire. I have to confess that this does not come all that naturally to me, personally, but it is of paramount importance. Editing and deleting and banning are the enforcement procedures, which obviously should be carried out according to the guidelines and as fairly and transparently as can be managed.

However, the more important role of the staff is to lead by example and set the tone. As such, it is no defence at all to say that a moderator's posts pass the minimum standard below which they would be deleted, let alone that they would be deleted if they were not in feedback. If the best of us barely pass muster, the rest of us are really in a mess. And I fear this is what is happening.

Moderators should be uncomfortable; they should worry about their own behaviour, and that of their fellow mods. They should not be complacent, and they should not be sheep huddling in a fold. I don't know what discussions you have had in private about all this if any, and don't need to know. But this is the essence of my complaint, that I hold the staff to a higher standard than the members, because they ought to exemplify the best of us, not the minimally acceptable. That way leads to degeneration.

And now, let us pray ...

For goodness sake. Now I feel that I have to speak up so as not to stand by and allow the audience to be mislead. Quoted below is the private message being referred to, so that you can judge for yourselves.

For the record, I told Tiff that I would have no objections to it being shared publicly, and I wish that she'd have done so alongside her own comments so as to put things in proper context.

I would also like to see this put to rest, and that is entirely within our control. But here's the situation: I refuse to be anyone other than myself, and I refuse to sacrifice any part of myself, in order to repair our relationship. I will continue to act as I see fit.

I strive towards neither affection nor animosity, but rather stoic indifference. Hence, I try to think of it as like water under the bridge.

I'm not sure whether the part about "no animosity" has registered, but whatever. I'm tired and I don't want to expend anymore energy on this.

There is a difference between saying something is "OK" and simply not legislating against it. Society doesn't consider it's "OK" to cheat on your partner, for example, but there's no law against it either. Because we don't legislate against condescension doesn't mean we think it's a good thing. What is your suggestion? Can you give us something concrete to work with?

Moderators should be drawn from the best of the members, both in terms of their philosophical knowledge and clarity of posting, and their behaviour in terms of the guidelines. Generally, I would be looking for posters who defuse rather than escalate, for grace under fire. I have to confess that this does not come all that naturally to me, personally, but it is of paramount importance. Editing and deleting and banning are the enforcement procedures, which obviously should be carried out according to the guidelines and as fairly and transparently as can be managed.

However, the more important role of the staff is to lead by example and set the tone. As such, it is no defence at all to say that a moderator's posts pass the minimum standard below which they would be deleted, let alone that they would be deleted if they were not in feedback. If the best of us barely pass muster, the rest of us are really in a mess. And I fear this is what is happening.

Moderators should be uncomfortable; they should worry about their own behaviour, and that of their fellow mods. They should not be complacent, and they should not be sheep huddling in a fold. I don't know what discussions you have had in private about all this if any, and don't need to know. But this is the essence of my complaint, that I hold the staff to a higher standard than the members, because they ought to exemplify the best of us, not the minimally acceptable. That way leads to degeneration. — unenlightened

Or

The guidelines and rules are to enforce a minimum level of decorum. Certainly you can do better than that?

I personally don't think you're a very effective communicator and it stems from the fact that you think you don't need to take other people's feelings into account when expressing yourself but expect them to accept the way you express yourself. Or consider "being frank" important but how you do that a "stylistic irrelevance". There's a lot of ways to get your ideas across; being frank and not caring about how you come across to others is not very effective and you will indeed end up in a "bloodsport" with a lot of people where most of the time it isn't necessary. — Beneki

I would also like to see this put to rest, and that is entirely within our control. But here's the situation: I refuse to be anyone other than myself, and I refuse to sacrifice any part of myself, in order to repair our relationship. I will continue to act as I see fit.

I strive towards neither affection nor animosity, but rather stoic indifference. Hence, I try to think of it as like water under the bridge. — Sapientia

You will have to work things out with Tiff as you see fit.. You should be yourself, and not sacrifice any part of yourself. So too should Tiff be true to who she is. On the other hand, Striving "towards neither affection nor animosity, but rather stoic indifference" might not be the most felicitous approach to working relationships.

Well, as I said before, I am making a personal effort in that direction. And I think the moderating team in general are concerned about their behavior. As for @Sapientia, he's been with us since the start of TPF and though he's always been very frank and blunt he has not been the subject of complaints up until recently and has done his fair share of carrying the moderating load. I would ask that moderators be judged in the context of their entire contribution here. Also, we've, many of us, on and off the mod team, been friends for, what, close to ten years now? More? There is a personal element of wanting to maintain and repair relationships without breaking them irreparably, that's true. I don't see that as "huddling in a fold", I see that as being human. So, I hope the conversation here will lead in a positive direction, and for me that would involve a greater understanding of respective grievances and no one leaving or permanently breaking a friendship.

You will have to work things out with Tiff as you see fit.. You should be yourself, and not sacrifice any part of yourself. So too should Tiff be true to who she is. On the other hand, Striving "towards neither affection nor animosity, but rather stoic indifference" might not be the most felicitous approach to working relationships. — Bitter Crank

There will be no working out and no ongoing relationship of which to speak. That is how I currently feel. It's just not worth the trouble.

So, I hope the conversation here will lead in a positive direction and for me that would involve a greater understanding of respective grievances and no one leaving or permanently breaking a friendship. — Baden

Well that didn't last long...OK, I need a break. Food for thought all.

Whatever I'm doing, it's not lurking. I'm not pissed off either. And I don't want to come back to the fold because I'm not a sheep. — unenlightened

Again, fuck off with your 'romantic', your 'lurking'; it's ad hominem bollocks. — unenlightened

I now realize you're a waste of time and regret having engaged.

All you are asking for is either silence or submission. — TimeLine

Actually, no. I'm asking for feedback, but presenting it to the masses is having no beneficial effect, and romanticizing this as some sort of civil rights protest is immature at best. At best we have a customer who's unhappy with his service. The complaint has been heard and taken seriously, but standing on the table screaming your soup was cold isn't only inappropriate and disrespectful, it is more wrong than the wrong you seek to remedy.

I lack the power to ban, but telling others to fuck off, despite how super duper justified you feel, would get you thrown out of my establishment 100% of the time despite all your other wonderful qualities.

I suggest we all stop here and let this post be the last one in this thread.