Why would I do that? I do not want you to leave. I will ask you instead not to read things into what I say and then jump to conclusions based upon your own imaginings. If my comments were intended to be about you, then I would have mentioned you by name. A little less paranoia wouldn't go amiss, my dear Tiff — Sapientia

I am afraid I am going to have to go on being me and you being you.

Just remember when you speak on an authoritative thread such as this, you are part of the staff holding the moderator position, not just another member of The Philosophy Forum. You see, that key of responsibility in being a moderator, which, un gave up so he could freely speak on threads like these, holds any key holder to a higher standard of conduct.

Any disagreements?

I don't need a lecture from you, thanks.

To reply to your edit:

I have been quite open, for quite a long time now, about my lowered estimation of the value of philosophy. Hence my unsolicited advice. It's nothing personal at all. — Sapientia

But in the process of you lowering your estimation of the value of philosophy and offering unsolicited advice, it makes me question the purpose of your responses, especially when you could give a flip as to how your responses are received.

It wasn't a lecture it was unsolicited advice.

Kevin's a human too!

It wasn't a lecture it was unsolicited advice. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Sure sounded like a lecture, but whatever you say.

I have filed your "unsolicited advice" in my "special cabinet".

But in the process of you lowering your estimation of the value of philosophy and offering unsolicited advice, it makes me question the purpose of your responses, especially when you could give a flip as to how your responses are received. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Yes, well, now you know. It is as I said, and I have nothing further to add.

It is as I said, and I have nothing further to add. — Sapientia

But your adding unsolicited advice at every turn has a negative effect that subtracts from the love/pursuit of wisdom.

I have filed your "unsolicited advice" in my "special cabinet". — Sapientia

Would that be your moderator folder?

Why am I even talking to you? I can think of better ways to spend my time. Good day, Tiff.

I couldn't tell if that exchange between you both, @ArguingWAristotleTiff, @Sapientia was sincere, camaraderie, camaraderie laced with poison or so steeped in irony it inverted itself.

It is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

*Burps quietly*

Notice how you've actually called me names? Attacked me personally, while supposedly being all for the precise opposite of that? — Wosret

Read again. I gave you two versions. From your reply I surmise you prefer the second option, which was my point.

Why am I even talking to you? We are not of the same calibre and I can think of better ways to spend my time. Good day, Tiff. — Sapientia

Hello Kevin. I wish it was nice to meet you. But it isn't. It's petty unpleasant. You lower the tone of the discussion and exemplify what I have wanted to bring to the fore. This forum is sexist, full of macho posing, competitive foulness, and locker room talk. Locker rooms are segregated, and you are doing your best to keep the forum segregated. I think you should stop being a moderator and moderate your own behaviour.

I have been quite open, for quite a long time now, about my lowered estimation of the value of philosophy. — Sapientia

I kind of agree... :-O

I couldn't tell if that exchange between you both, ArguingWAristotleTiff, @Sapientia was sincere, camaraderie, camaraderie laced with poison or so steeped in irony it inverted itself. — fdrake

fdrake, the exchange was sincere on my behalf and I do appreciate you asking because I have tried to always speak directly with someone I have a difference of opinion with such as Sapientia. It wasn't that long ago that I began to feel a condescending attitude being expressed lavishly over myself and other longtime members and asked politely in thread to tone it down, which was met with more of the same condescending attitude and I walked away from the thread instead of resorting to what is happening here. Within 24 hours, on a completely different thread, my post was met with another snarky reply directly to me.

I cannot tell you how many snarky replies I posted and then immediately deleted it because I felt that it would be inappropriate as a member, to speak that way to a moderator. I believe there is a level of respect that comes down from the top being the owner, then the administrators, to the moderators and finally to the members. It sets a precedence as to how the owner wishes the forum to operate in spirit and in actual application.

Thanks for the clarifications Tiff. I usually have difficulty telling parodies, sarcasm and ironic chatter from the real thing, so it was a request for clarification as well expressing a desire for some bickering to stop. In my experience if there are a few active posters showing contempt for the forum's staff it ends up being very unpleasant for everyone. Members get frustrated with the toxic environment, since public conflict between staff and member groups quickly becomes an institutional problem.

Though, I think my experience with administrating a leftist discussion forum is a bit different from leading a general purpose philosophy forum. Specifically because people here don't seem to know how to be cruel to each other creatively (no one knows seppuku like the academic left), and there aren't so many preformed ideological cliques and entryists attempting to subsume the group to a particular method of thinking. For example, I find it unlikely that a group like the Platypus affiliated society or terrorist fantasy organisation Leading Light will join the philosophy forum en-mass and try to make it an advertising platform. In contrast, the people who advertise their own philosophical systems on this site are just individuals and very easy to ignore if reading that kind of thing isn't up your alley.

In my experience if there are a few active posters showing contempt for the forum's staff it ends up being very unpleasant for everyone. Members get frustrated with the toxic environment, since public conflict between staff and member groups quickly becomes an institutional problem. — fdrake

What you express is very true and I know that for myself, it is the very reason I always try to address a concern such as this, in private with another moderator or if necessary an administrator.

Sup Kevin, you're responsible for my good buddy taking off, sure we had our ups and downs, closeness, and falling outs, but who can stay mad at me? She fucking hated you though, and you were a big contributing factor in her leaving. That's just a fact. What actual female contributors has Sapientia made leave because of clashes of values and ideologies? How do you know what the women want out of their philosophy, do you attract them to the forum, or scare them outs?

Now, I like you great, this isn't a personal attack, just a fact check.

I've defended you lots of times, and I hope that you don't think I've ever disrespected you, we's tight.

I've defended you lots of times, and I hope that you don't think I've ever disrespected you, we's tight. — Wosret

I've never felt disrespected by you Wos and you have defended me more times than I can count and I Thank you for that. I feel emotionally safe with you, always have.

What actual female contributors has Sapientia made leave because of clashes of values and ideologies? How do you know what the women want out of their philosophy, do you attract them to the forum, or scare them outs? — Wosret

I can also fact check part of this for you. unenlightened has been someone that I have expressed my concerns to over the last decade. I am not going to leave as a result of the clash I am having with Sapientia, regardless of his condescending attitude towards me and it may even be towards the discipline of Philosophy, I don't really know.

I know that you have a great relationships with him, and I would like to think that I do as well. I am a competitive person, but not unreasonable, so I may annoy him from time to time, but I don't think that he disrespects me, nor I him. Maybe that was an uncalled for comment, I just couldn't help myself, because this one time, mommy and daddy didn't get along, and then mommy left over it, and I have a sore spot for that happening...

I just want to say, are we sure that we want to conclude that the reason there isn't a 50/50 split of the sexes with contributors is because we're all just fuckers? Well, not the one pointing the finger surely... I've mastered the whole hand point, so that none are ever pointing back at me.

She fucking hated you though, and you were a big contributing factor in her leaving. That's just a fact. What actual female contributors has Sapientia made leave because of clashes of values and ideologies? How do you know what the women want out of their philosophy, do you attract them to the forum, or scare them outs? — Wosret

Anyone is entitled to hate me, and every staff member is likely to be hated by some. I'm really not interested in justifying my own posting habits here, (though if you have a specific complaint about my posts I'd like to hear about it) or claiming to know 'what the women want', as though that is even a thing. But I am giving feedback about the general conduct of the forum, that it is unbalanced. And to find a moderator being contemptuous of a female member in a thread about the more than somewhat male bias of the site deserves to be called out with some vigour. It is unacceptable.

It is the nature of philosophy to cut deep, and it is a requirement for a philosophy moderator to have a steady hand and not stab wildly. I am not so certain of my superior virtue as my history of modding might suggest; I did my best, and came to appreciate the difficulties from the inside. Now, I will do my best from the outside to be a member supportive of the good functioning of the site as I see it. I aimed for grace under fire, and a sharp scalpel, and the avoidance of sword fights. I'm still aiming at that, and missing the mark at times.

This is a shit-stirrer's thread, isn't it? I stir the shit and watch who vomits. But I do it with care; can you believe that?

I don't really know, there is surely a male bias, based on the demographics and numbers alone, and not at all based on any male's opinions, sensibilities, favoritism, or discrimination. That's all male bias, because it a male doing it, and it is biased. The only way to defeat that bias would be with female numbers, and equalization. We want more women, more women is the only cure. Being enemies and friends of women is just more male bias. That's all I'm saying.

I was reactionary, and was in the mind of thinking of being accused of being like some mocho neanderthal, and that's not cool, not cool at all. That ain't hows I sees it at all.

I'm trying to think hard, and speak carefully this time, all I want to expound is that we all agree that there is an imbalance, and that that is unfortunate, and impoverishing, and undesirable. I am merely reacting to the notion that it's anyone's fault, that there can be other explanations.

I like Sapientia, but I argue with him all the time, that "higher caliber" stuff was a bit much, I guess that I just believe that women are strong, and don't like to see dudes coming to their defense, and stealing their strength. Doing things for people that they can do for themselves isn't helping them, it's robbing them.

I agree that abuse, or a jagged edge is definitely in need of sharpening, and we don't want to be cutting for the sake of violence, but remedy. I just felt like we're all kind of being attacked and called dicks here, maybe it wasn't was you said, I think it was probably Benkei, I misspoke, not you. I blame him.

Hello Kevin. I wish it was nice to meet you. But it isn't. It's petty unpleasant. You lower the tone of the discussion and exemplify what I have wanted to bring to the fore. This forum is sexist, full of macho posing, competitive foulness, and locker room talk. Locker rooms are segregated, and you are doing your best to keep the forum segregated. I think you should stop being a moderator and moderate your own behaviour. — unenlightened

Well hello to you too, Kevin, and hello also to your unearned moral superiority, which has once again made an appearance alongside you.

One day, Kevin, I hope that you will be able to shake off those blinkers which obscure your vision; and I welcome the day, if it ever comes, when you are able to cast judgement over such matters with the impartiality that you so demonstrably lack. But you are, after all, unenlightened, are you not, my dear Kevin?

In particular, and especially, your allegation that I am doing my best to keep the forum segregated is false and outrageous.

Your judgement is not only clouded and swayed by gender - an irrelevance in terms of conduct - but, as I suspect, it is willfully so. There is a reason why you chose to single out my comments, made in retaliation, and pass over in silence those of my interlocutor. That reason is the same reason why I do not especially mourn your dramatic resignation from the team of site staff.

I do not care for your hyperbolic, one-sided, verbal lynchings, and I will not permit them to drag me down to your eager satisfaction. You wish to characterise myself and others - male others - as dastardly villains, whilst venerate others - female others - as saints, or rather, damsels in distress. It is all so superficial and sexist, and the worst part of it is that you seem to think you're combating sexism as opposed to succumbing to it.

This forum is sexist — unenlightened

For what it's worth, I don't think this forum is sexist, or that Sapientia has misbehaved with regards to his behaviour in this thread. People tend to take some things way too seriously. Just because a man disagrees with a woman in the same way he disagrees with other males on the forum does not suggest to me that he is sexist.

Furthermore, I, and I'm sure other members of the community too, didn't feel that this thread or your resignation were done with peaceful intentions. I had written quite a snarky reply to Tiff actually when she had re-opened this thread, because she clearly did not understand the context of the thread and was misinterpreting what happened, but decided not to go down that route. I'm sure if I had posted that, some people, not going to mention who, would have said I'm sexist because I tried to "shut down" a woman or something of that sort - basically the same that was said to Sapientia :s

But regardless, there were a couple more threads related to this one Tiff that you should probably have a look at so you can better understand the context in which this thread arose. I very much doubt that unenlightened's intentions were as "peaceful" as he made it out to sound, or that "anyone" can be Kevin. I get you could receive that idea just from reading this thread, absent the context in which it arose. I think there was quite a specific Kevin that he had in mind, and this thread was just part of that.

If you ask me, I think the moderators should have locked this thread up when the discussion was finished, precisely because it can be so easily misinterpreted by someone at a later date, who does not understand the context in which it arose.

Just because a man disagrees with a woman in the same way he disagrees with other males on the forum does not suggest to me that he is sexist. — Agustino

Indeed. I always used to cut Tiff some slack and go easy on her, because she was always so cloyingly nice and cutesy-wutesy. That was favouritism and partiality in action. I was never truly comfortable with that situation.

Then she enters the fray on gun control - a subject I am passionate about, as she is - and I let rip, as I would with anyone else, so as not to discriminate, as is only fair. I even admittedly perhaps went a little overboard. And ever since then, she has noticeably been taking even innocuous remarks of mine as subtle personal attacks. Suddenly, a joke to bring some light to the doom and gloom becomes a trap: an offering of tainted meat. Apparently, it's all secretly about her, unbeknownst even to me. And I thought I was the one with a big ego.

I have been quite open, for quite a long time now, about my lowered estimation of the value of philosophy. — Sapientia

I kind of agree... — Agustino

Is TGW's ghost haunting you?

I kind of agree, too. 8-)

Is TGW's ghost haunting you? — Thorongil

Perhaps. Why? Did he hold similar views?

@Sapientia
You are amiss in thinking this stems from the gun control discussion as the condescending attitude you liberally use with forum members spans more than one one topic.

Yeah, very much so.