Yes, yes, I love Agustino too. Look at it as me helping him not to say stuff that may result in grievous bodily harm against him. Besides which, we are not going to get anywhere unless we clarify that we are using words in the same way. — Baden
Okay, let's see. Approve means to have a positive opinion of something or someone. Forgive means:There is no sense in which a raped woman approves of her rapist's actions because she doesn't forgive him. — Baden
to stop blaming or being angry with someone for something that person has done, or not punish them for something
Yes, I am getting at that, but not only at that. My point is that if there is no radical forgiveness and renunciation of violence, then there can be no peace on Earth. My point is that violence tends to spread because each party ends up seeing itself as justified to reprisal. Do you follow that?What you seem to be getting at, which I understand, is the idea that we should eventually get past our negative emotions towards those who have done us harm as that is psychologically healthy. — Baden
No, not of the acts. I never said of the acts. In fact, I said the opposite:You weren't just saying it's preferable you were saying if they don't they are guilty of approving of the horrific acts that were inflicted upon them. — Baden
I did say that they would be guilty in approving of the mode of being of hatred and violence, in at least some of its manifestations, if they don't forgive. This isn't "moral guilt", just "guilt" in the sense that they would be responsible for that, it would be a consequence of their actions. It shows that they think the mode of being of hatred and violence can be good - for example in punishing wrong-doers.To forgive someone doesn't mean you approve of their actions. — Agustino
Not forgiving is not equal to hating — Baden
Does being angry involve hating? Not forgiving per the definition above entails wanting to punish someone and/or being angry with them. That sounds to me like hating someone or wanting to punish them (do violence to them).+ Not forgiving is not equal to wishing violence on someone etc — Baden
No, not of the acts. I never said of the acts. — Agustino
A man rapes your wife. You don't forgive him. Does that mean you approve of his actions?
— Baden
"Yes, it does" — Agustino
Yes, that is a very big difference. You have set a very high bar for yourself.
Also - I don't "concede to prevent incidents." I try to act with compassion and effectiveness. Very often I fail.
I don't expect you to change how you are and what you feel and believe. I'm just telling you how I see it, how I try to live my life. — T Clark
No, I don't think I ever said that :s - when did I say that? Believing that everything is predestined is against my spiritual position, and I don't believe I would ever have said that.
I may have said in the context of Spinozist philosophy that everything is determined, in the sense that everything has causes for it. However, I distinguished this from fatalism which holds that everything is pre-determined. — Agustino
I see forgiveness as a processes on an interpersonal basis, a processes that varies greatly depending on who all are involved. There is a difference in forgiving a child, a parent, a friend, a lover, or a stranger. It has to do with fairness, harm, and pain. — Cavacava
How many times have we heard a child or adolescent say to a parent "I hate you", and we discount it because we understand that they really don't understand what it means to hate, how deeply this word can cut. It is quite another thing for a parent to tell a child or adolescent that they are worthless, or no good. — Cavacava
A friend you count on, or some one you love, may inadvertently hurt you and be quite unaware of the pain they have caused you, unless you tell them. In a lot of ways, I think dialogue is the source of openness, from which honest reconciliation, and forgiveness (healing) are possible. — Cavacava
Have I forgiven her because of my own experiences that enabled me to understand her better or have I forgiven her because she acknowledged her wrongdoing? — TimeLine
Forgiveness is an act of a victim. Do you feel victimized? Do you feel a wrong was done to you? Or did you realize that you were mistaken and that you were never a victim? — TheMadFool
No difference. But predestination and fatalism and predeterminism are different from determinism. — Agustino
Does being angry involve hating? Not forgiving per the definition above entails wanting to punish someone and/or being angry with them. That sounds to me like hating someone or wanting to punish them (do violence to them). — Agustino
"having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees [of the law] that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!" Colossians 2:14 — Agustino
That is because a child takes the parent as a model of imitation. Even when the parent hurts the child, the child is still attached to the parent, because the very hurt signals a superior sufficiency of being in the parent that the child is shown to lack, so the child paradoxically seeks to imitate and become even more like the parent. This double bind is painful. The more violent the parent, the more attached the child becomes. The interiorized sense of lack always propels the child forward in seeking dominating models - the masochistic desire of course isn't because the child takes pleasure in pain, but rather because the proximity of the pain signals a self-sufficient model that the child can imitate and hence achieve the same self-sufficiency of being. The child cannot forgive the parent easily because the parent as model becomes rival - it is precisely in its rivalry that the parent is shown to have superiority of being. And the child wants this superiority of being. It is propelled by the desire to become invincible - of course a desire which is impossible and self-defeating.the intensity of a parent hurting you is more than a sibling, in as much as it is easier to forgive a sibling for hurting you than it is a friend. — TimeLine
Well it is the case that I am a determinist of the Spinozist kind in the sense that I take that things are determined, things have causes to be what they are. But there is no predeterminism/fatalism and the like because you yourself are part of the causal chain. Determinism isn't incompatible with free will.However I must admit that I had always held in my mind that you believed in determinism, so it is good to know that is not the case. — TimeLine
I did say that they would be guilty in approving of the mode of being of hatred and violence. — Agustino
My point is that if there is no radical forgiveness and renunciation of violence, then there can be no peace on Earth. My point is that violence tends to spread because each party ends up seeing itself as justified to reprisal. Do you follow that? — Agustino
Yes, we can be in an emotional state without wanting to be. That experience is quite common.Do you not acknowledge that we can be in an emotional state without approving of it? — Baden
Sure. Forgiveness and love are not emotional states, they are precisely choices. Jesus always presents it as an alternative choice between violence and love.To me, what's important, morally speaking, is not the emotional state, which is often beyond our control, but our reaction to it. — Baden
It's not so much of where responsibility must be laid - responsibility cannot be laid, it exists. It must only be revealed to be at the feet of the violent.but responsibility for violence must be laid at the feet of the violent (and their enablers) not at those of their victims regardless of whether those victims forgive the violent or not. — Baden
Yes, we can be in an emotional state without wanting to be. That experience is quite common. — Agustino
Sure. Forgiveness and love are not emotional states, they are precisely choices. Jesus always presents it as an alternative choice between violence and love. — Agustino
It's not so much of where responsibility must be laid - responsibility cannot be laid, it exists. It must only be revealed to be at the feet of the violent. — Agustino
I already told you - a choice.Love is not an emotional state? What is then? — Baden
Oh, of course you won't want to "unjustly" punish the one who harmed you. That's precisely how the logic of violence works - the victim always deserves it. "The woman asked to be raped", and so on. What Jesus reveals is precisely that "the victim deserves it" is a lie, but it is precisely this lie which gets the logic of violence working and sustains it in motion.Also, do you agree we can be unforgiving without wanting to unjustly punish the one who harmed us? — Baden
I already told you - a choice. — Agustino
Oh, of course you won't want to "unjustly" punish the one who harmed you. That's precisely how the logic of violence works - the victim always deserves it. "The woman asked to be raped", and so on. What Jesus reveals is precisely that "the victim deserves it" is a lie, but it is precisely this lie which gets the logic of violence working and sustains it in motion. — Agustino
Do you agree we can be unforgiving without wanting to unjustly punish the one who harmed us? — Baden
Meaning? Anger is an emotional state for example.I mean name an emotional state. — Baden
And I go back to the phenomenology of the experience. If you seek an unjust punishment you're never going to think the punishment is unjust are you?! You'll be 100% sure it is just, like how the rapist feels 100% sure that the woman really wants to be raped. Then you'll go ahead with your punishment thinking it is the most just thing in the world. You're never going to think "Ah I want this really unjust punishment for he who harmed me".In other words is not forgiving someone for harming you but seeking a just punishment somehow immoral? — Baden
We can absolutely talk like so, and there is a sense in which love is an emotion. I fell in love with a girl, there is a certain emotion associated with it.Does anger not have in common with love the fact that is an emotional state though an opposing one? Can we not talk of anger vs acts of anger as well as love vs acts of love? — Baden
You'll be 100% sure it is just, like how the rapist feels 100% sure that the woman really wants to be raped. — Agustino
And I go back to the phenomenology of the experience. If you seek an unjust punishment you're never going to think the punishment is unjust are you? — Agustino
But Christian love as recommended by Jesus - love your neighbor as yourself - isn't a feeling, it's a choice. Even if you feel like hating your neighbor, you should put your hatred to one side and love your neighbor. This propagates further on in other relationships such as your relationship with your wife or partner. — Agustino
I remember the story of Bertrand Russell on his bike one day, when he realised he no longer felt attracted to his wife. So he divorced her. He failed to see that there is anything more to love than feeling. So when the feeling was gone, so was his love. — Agustino
Well many of them do cite that the woman really wanted it as justification for their actions. That the woman seduced them, etc. So either we believe that they think that and then we can understand why they did what they did, or we disbelieve them, and then evil becomes somewhat of a mystery. Of course by believing that this is what they think we are not also entailed to thinking that what they think is true (because it's not).And I doubt most rapists can convince themselves the woman wants to be raped any more than someone who punches you in the face can convince themselves you wanted them to do it. — Baden
If the punishment is really just, then obviously that wouldn't be wrong.Let's presume the punishment is just. For example, the woman hopes the rapist will be sent to prison for a period of time as outlined under the law. So, what then? — Baden
If the punishment is really just, then obviously that wouldn't be wrong. — Agustino
Asking for the just punishment isn't necessarily being unforgiving though. — Agustino
In other words is not forgiving someone for harming you and seeking a just punishment somehow immoral? — Baden
it doesn't follow that unforgiving is morally laudable (or right). — Agustino
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