So you're saying you tell women "I am attracted to you" and then ask women if you can touch their leg or their hand? You ask women if you can kiss them? — JustSomeGuy

You don't ask a woman if you can kiss her. You ask her if she wants to kiss you. Or tell her that she can, if she wants.

I have a French accent. I could ask someone to pluck a chicken and it would still be more naturally romantic than all the artifice you can summon. — Akanthinos

Despite this joke being at my expense, it still made me laugh. And you're not wrong.

Well, that's how you are perceiving our interaction. — Akanthinos

No, that's what you have been clearly implying by the things you've said.

You say women expect men to do the first move, and that they also expect this first move to be physical, and that these incompatible expectations are at the source of the negative dynamics between the sexes. — Akanthinos

That's not at all what I claimed. What I said was that women cannot want men to make the first move spontaneously,while simultaneously wanting them to ask consent first.

You then lay an icing of "women are emotional and not rational" with the cherry of "women don't have more problems than man" — Akanthinos

I did not say "women are emotional and not rational," I said that women are biologically predisposed to more frequent irrationality. This is a scientific fact; political correctness doesn't negate science.

I did say that women don't have more problems than men, they have different problems, though obviously with some overlap.

I'm curious, do you live in the U.S.? And if so, for hour long have you resided here? If not, then much of or disagreement is likely due to cultural differences. France has a very different culture than the U.S., and especially when it comes to sexuality they seem to be much more advanced than we are here.

you'll have a hard time passing as anything else than a frustrated MRA-type with this type of setup. — Akanthinos

I don't know what MRA stands for, and Google returns results for medical scans.

You don't ask a woman if you can kiss her. You ask her if she wants to kiss you. Or tell her that she can, if she wants. — Michael

That doesn't sound any less un-romantic. Maybe the culture is just different where I grew up, but I have it on good authority from multiple women I've had relationships with that women do not want you to ask, they want you to act.

That doesn't sound any less romantic. Maybe the culture is just different where I grew up, but I have it on good authority from multiple women I've had relationships with that women do not want you to ask, they want you to act. — JustSomeGuy

You say women expect men to do the first move, and that they also expect this first move to be physical, and that these incompatible expectations are at the source of the negative dynamics between the sexes. You then lay an icing of "women are emotional and not rational" with the cherry of "women don't have more problems than man". — Akanthinos

You both are wrong.

I am unsure whether you are aware of this, but all women are different and the only problem here is you both - as men - trying to rationale hasty generalisations of approaching and eventually soliciting sexual intercourse or intimacy. The problem of the OP is this solicitation, this subjective intent. Would you like it if you were approached only because of the value you have as an object to the person approaching you? That my history, my thoughts and opinions, my skills in the workplace and talent are all irrelevant as long as I have a vagina?

Perhaps you should change your attitude and have a discussion about how to solicit friendship. That may alleviate your problem.

but I have it on good authority from multiple women I've had relationships with that women do not want you to ask, they want you to act. — JustSomeGuy

Women generally don't want weak partners. They aren't really different from men in that regard, a lot of us would also very much dislike overly meek partners. Asking for permission can be seen as submissive, especially when it is done over and over again. It can also be seen as authoritative, as a statement of fact and a subtle, implied occasion for the other to desist. My experience is that it is well received when it is well led up to. Like Micheal said, don't ask her "can I kiss you now", tell her, "I will kiss you now, yes?". Don't say "Can we sleep together/" (lol), say, "I want to take you".

I'm curious, do you live in the U.S.? — JustSomeGuy

No. Canada, Montreal.

If not, then much of or disagreement is likely due to cultural differences. — JustSomeGuy

Possibly. Definitely doesn't make me want to go flirt in the US, tho, that's for sure.

France has a very different culture than the U.S., and especially when it comes to sexuality they seem to be much more advanced than we are here. — JustSomeGuy

That's a trope, and a very false one at that. In many regards France gender norms are still much closer to that portrayed in Mad Men than anything else.

Do you have trouble reading English?

Given this unsollicitated answer, I assume I could ask you the same.

No, not really. When I say:

the only problem here is you both - as men - trying to rationale hasty generalisations of approaching and eventually soliciting sexual intercourse or intimacy — TimeLine

And you say:

Women generally don't want weak partners. They aren't really different from men in that regard, a lot of us would also very much dislike overly meek partners. Asking for permission can be seen as submissive, especially when it is done over and over again. — Akanthinos

I think I am justified to question whether you understood what hasty generalisations are.

And you say: — TimeLine

Hadn't seen your answer yet, and I wasn't replying to you anyhow... so... Care to dial down the aggressivity? :s

In any case, do you really find so insulting "women generally don't want weak undecisive partners, just like man"? As far as hasty generalisation goes, I feel it's a fairly well balanced one.

I am unsure whether you are aware of this, but all women are different and the only problem here is you both - as men - trying to rationale hasty generalisations of approaching and eventually soliciting sexual intercourse or intimacy. — TimeLine

You make a very good point. I'll admit, looking over my previous posts, I've been unfair with the way I've been speaking about these things. I should have made it more clear that I'm only speaking of my own personal experience, I didn't mean for any of this to sound as though I'm claiming all women are the same or want the same things. My intention has actually been to show that women are not all the same by sharing these experiences and things that women I've known personally have told me. But it's nobody's fault but mine for not making my point more explicit and choosing my words more carefully.

That being said, your point seems to apply to the MeToo movement itself, or at the very least many of it's "members". The articles I've read on it have also been claiming that all women want the same thing, which is for men to ask consent before making any sexual advances.

Perhaps you should change your attitude and have a discussion about how to solicit friendship. That may alleviate your problem. — TimeLine

For the record, every woman I've had a romantic relationship with began as friendship, and the vast majority of my closest friends throughout my life have been women.

Would you like it if you were approached only because of the value you have as an object to the person approaching you? That my history, my thoughts and opinions, my skills in the workplace and talent are all irrelevant as long as I have a vagina? — TimeLine

So you're saying that this is what MeToo is truly about? Because I was under the impression it was about unwanted sexual advances from men in general, not sexist discrimination in the workplace. I don't use Twitter, though. Everything I know about this is from third party sources.

You don't ask a woman if you can kiss her. You ask her if she wants to kiss you. Or tell her that she can, if she wants. — Michael

I love it. 'I guess you can kiss me now if you feel you must.'

I love it. 'I guess you can kiss me now if you feel you must.' — dog

I think it actually went:

Me: Are you fun?
Her: Yes
Me: Adventurous?
Her: Yes
Me: Show me
Her: How?
Me: Kiss me

Women generally don't want weak partners. — Akanthinos

In my experience it's more about women, and men, not wanting their other partner to be more powerful than they are. So, the concern ought to be about equity, not equality.

You could swap "kiss me" with "blow me" and you'd still be taking a gamble if you're unsure about the other person's will.

Good stuff. I miss the flirting stage. Best game in the world, perhaps. At least I can watch La La Land with the Mrs.

You could swap "kiss me" with "blow me" and you'd still be taking a gamble if you're unsure about the other person's will. — Buxtebuddha

Well that's just unrealistic when at a nightclub.

You need to come to Montreal. :D

I'll also share some evidence for my claim that women are, in general, more irrational than men due to certain biological processes and hormones. — JustSomeGuy

The article reminds me of a joke:

Why do they call it "pre-menstrual syndrome"?
Because "mad cow" was already taken.

I'm not sure that the menstrual cycle makes women more irrational; it might, don't know. I think that at least many women in the world are socialized to be less rational, more irrational, or something similar.

It seems like women in other countries are much more rational/mature than Anglo-American-Australian women. But that's not based on first hand knowledge. Rational men are all alike; irrational women are all different in their craziness, as Tolstoy said.

This is disgusting.

And this.

In any case, do you really find so insulting "women generally don't want weak undecisive partners, just like man"? As far as hasty generalisation goes, I feel it's a fairly well balanced one. — Akanthinos

The one thing that I do know all women like and that is respect. Not such a difficult thing to grasp. Hasty generalisations are insufficient, irrational and fallacious. Pretty simple.

I think that at least many women in the world are socialized to be less rational, more irrational, or something similar. — Bitter Crank

I would definitely agree with that.

Me: Are you fun?
Her: Yes
Me: Adventurous?
Her: Yes
Me: Show me
Her: How?
Me: Kiss me — Michael

Absolutely cringe-worthy.
If it has worked for you, more power to you, but this is like one of those horrible pickup lines you'd hear in some YouTube video on how to attract women, hosted by some greasy douche.

Maybe where I differ most is that I have never had any desire to engage with women who would fall for dumb pickup lines like that. I've always just been genuine, actually gotten to know her, had a conversation; treated her like a person first and foremost. I know there are many girls who respond to and even enjoy when guys use pickup lines such as that, but as I said, those generally aren't the kind of girls I would want to get to know anyway.

Absolutely cringe-worthy.
If it has worked for you, more power to you, but this is like one of those horrible pickup lines you'd hear in some YouTube video on how to attract women, hosted by some greasy douche.

Maybe where I differ most is that I have never had any desire to engage with women who would fall for dumb pickup lines like that. — JustSomeGuy

It isn't a pickup line. It's a flirty conversation.

I know there are many girls who respond to and even enjoy when guys use pickup lines such as that, but as I said, those generally aren't the kind of girls I would want to get to know anyway.

"Those" kind of girls? I think it telling that you seem to think less of women who respond well to this kind of talk.

The one thing that I do know all women like and that is respect. — TimeLine

By your own standard, this very statement is a hasty generalisation. Still, I guess you won't be willing to see my point, so I'll leave you to your indignation.

It isn't a pickup line. — Michael

Keep telling yourself that.

"Those" kind of girls? I think it telling that you seem to think less of women who respond well to this kind of talk. — Michael

I never said I think less of them, you're reading into my words things that aren't there. I said that girls who respond favorably to dumb pickup lines are not the kind of girls I am interested in. Is it wrong for me to have preferences in my romantic partners?

The point is you are using a myth of generalisation to relate to a context of an individual women.

If a woman is attracted to decisiveness, then it is her own. It isn't some sort or rule by which to obtain sex. In thinking about women in this way, you disrespect all of them.

Instead of understanding any instance of attraction in terms of the individual person involved, you relate to in terms of a generalisation which supposedly reflects a own you might come across. You've failed to understand and recognise someone else, with their own thoughts and desires is involved.

Not wrong to have preferences, but you are using interest in pick-up lines as a measure of social standing, competence and slut-shaming-- i.e. those women who would be interested in pick-up lines are dumb and shallow.

My intention has actually been to show that women are not all the same by sharing these experiences and things that women I've known personally have told me. — JustSomeGuy

Actually, you are probably the only person here I have some respect for and I appreciate your clarity around your personal experience - which you have clearly stated previously upon perusal - but it serves as a warning for those who are incapable of articulating the difference between isolated experiences and "women" in general and would respond accordingly.

That being said, your point seems to apply to the MeToo movement itself, or at the very least many of it's "members". The articles I've read on it have also been claiming that all women want the same thing, which is for men to ask consent before making any sexual advances. — JustSomeGuy

I don't know if the members here are generally moronic, but it is quite clear when a woman does not want to engage in sexual activity and so attempting to articulate what this consent would look like is a failure of any form of philosophical reasoning. The problem here is the intent that men may have to try and solicit sexual intercourse and to do this with little or no respect to the personhood of the woman in question. The problem is the intent here in men that enables bad men to behave badly by viewing women as merely an object for sexual gratification. This then means that in the workplace, their skills, their qualifications, their history of employment is all irrelevant. Who they are, what they like, the things that they do are irrelevant. They are just a sexual object and when a man has that in mind, the person does not exist. At university, same thing. Even in the home or even entrenched in cultures.

For the record, every woman I've had a romantic relationship with began as friendship, and the vast majority of my closest friends throughout my life have been women. — JustSomeGuy

(Y)

It isn't a pickup line. It's a flirty conversation. — Michael

What is your point, Michael? What are you attempting to convey?

My point isn't to use pick-up lines. I have never seen them work, and wouldn't really want a girl on who they would work.
My point is to place the blame squarely where it is deserved. You are responsible for engaging women in a manner that doesn't portray you as a creep. Engaging in polite conversation, having clear goals and mostly being good-humoured is, imho, the best policy.