Anyway, you have not addressed Peterson's point regarding 'taking responsibility' (or 'growing up'). Which means, that if you have any moral responsibility at all, it is to improve yourself (whatever that may mean) and take charge of your own life and its direct surroundings -- hence his remark of 'cleaning thy room'. It is basically Aristotelian Viritue ethics in modern clothes. — Youseeff
social justice — Benkei
Anyway, you have not addressed Peterson's point regarding 'taking responsibility' (or 'growing up'). Which means, that if you have any moral responsibility at all, it is to improve yourself (whatever that may mean) and take charge of your own life and its direct surroundings -- hence his remark of 'cleaning thy room'. It is basically Aristotelian Viritue ethics in modern clothes. If you want to change the world, start by changing yourself. Reflect on your own characteristics. — Youseeff
Social justice is not a thing, it's pretty much an oxymoronic concept that means "injustice." Any analysis that uses the concept instantly marks itself as being of little account. — gurugeorge
It would be far better, and more honest, to simply say one wants to steal from the rich to give to the poor — gurugeorge
Book 5 of Aristotles Ethics. Start there. Social justice is a subspecies of justice, e.g. the proper and proportionate distribution of common assets. Reasonable people can disagree on what people should be due because they hold different values but to think social justice means injustice and is oxymoronic doesn't make sense in light of the history of political philosophy. — Benkei
Social justice is a subspecies of justice, e.g. the proper and proportionate distribution of common assets. — Benkei
Take it up with Aristotle. — Benkei
"Common" begs the question. — gurugeorge
OK, so what constitutes 'theft', what marks it out exactly? — Pseudonym
Does marching into a place with guns and declaring that the entire country and all it's assets belongs to you count as theft?
Because that's how literally all property ownership came about,
which is the basis of wealth. — Pseudonym
if you trace it back to its origins, it's some form of original acquisition out of the state of nature. — gurugeorge
wealth mostly comes either from the fiat creation of currency (which is basically a kind of legalized Ponzi scheme) or by people transforming things from less preferred to more preferred uses (which is the normal process of capitalism). — gurugeorge
Aristotlean social justice was "the proper and proportionate distribution of common assets". — Benkei
No, the whole of America was stolen from the Native Americans, so every single non-native (and many natives) is trading in stolen property.
The entire industrial revolution was financed by resources stolen from the colonies, so all major industries are benefitting from the proceeds of crime. — Pseudonym
No, if that were the case then artisans would be the wealthiest class. Wealth, in a capitalist system, comes from the investment of capital (the clue is in the name), capital is obtained by the ownership of property and the resources the rings. — Pseudonym
Oh for crying out loud, this is just PC cult indoctrination. — gurugeorge
in fact most investments of capital fail, — gurugeorge
I don't know where you're getting this nonsense from. Aristotle talks mostly about what is now called "procedural" justice (Aristotle's "rectification"), not "distributive" justice in the modern "social justice" sense.
His use of "distribution" is mostly in the abstract, and only pertains to actual distribution (such as would be engaged in by a modern state) in a few cases (distribution of honors by the state, distribution of property held in common, e.g. by a partnership). — gurugeorge
unequal shares for equal people and equal shares for unequal people are unjust. In other words, it's justice as equality — Benkei
If you've actually got an argument, then make it, — Pseudonym
Really? Is that why most stock brokers and investment bankers are poor, whilst all those people who actually make things are billionaires. — Pseudonym
So I'm still not clear on what Peterson means with "growing up" but googling it seems to be about taking responsibility. — Benkei
The decimation of Native Americans was a result of diseases accidentally brought from the Old World, they weren't murdered by Whitey. — gurugeorge
Out of our regard to them we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect. — William Trent, William Trent's Journal at Fort Pitt
The Indian wars under the government of the United States have been more than 40 in number. They have cost the lives of about 19,000 white men, women and children, including those killed in individual combats, and the lives of about 30,000 Indians. The actual number of killed and wounded Indians must be very much higher than the number given... Fifty percent additional would be a safe estimate. — Census Bureau 1894
Basically, since we're all benefiting from some elements of stolen goods in the past (and that would include the "minorities"), it all pretty much cancels out — gurugeorge
The reality is that all the factors contribute to "actually making" things - capital, ideas, labour, etc. And ideally, they all get paid compensation for the relative non-redundancy of their contribution to the final value of the product. — gurugeorge
Racist bullshit. — Pseudonym
Francis Parkman, the first to research these events, described "the shameful plan of infecting the Indians" as "detestable". — Pseudonym
So what mechanism do you imagine generously transfers property, mineral rights and resources from the people who conquered the land to those who were conquered. Did they just change their minds and give it back? — Pseudonym
Yes, exactly, and large amounts of capital are the most non-redundant contribution, which is why the investors in a business reap most rewards from it. — Pseudonym
So those with enough capital to invest get richer, capital to invest comes ultimately from the ownership of land and resources, which come ultimately from violent conflict. — Pseudonym
First of all, law systems are increasingly unable to cope with the sheer amount of legal disputes. This has driven up costs, making court cases and the legal profession more expensive, due to high demand and a closed system of accreditation (requiring patronage, membership to the bar and similar barriers), and consequently inaccessible to many. — Benkei
Statutes of limitation further limit which claims can be brought before court; we can only pursue a claim for a certain period of time. — Benkei
If we then remember the adagium "it takes money to make money", it is clear that a basic inequality sets in where, within a given State, blacks and women (and other minorities) continue to be at a socio-economic disadvantage; simply because they are not afforded the same opportunities as dictated in large part by their socio-economic background. Contrary to popular belief, the most influential predictor of socio-economic mobility is not a person's education level. Instead, the strongest correlation between a person's life chances in society and economic mobility is how economic status and inheritance are transmitted across generations. The children of well-off parents simply tend to receive better schooling and benefit from material, cultural and genetic inheritances as researched by Bowles and Gintin in The inheritance of inequality. — Benkei
Aside from a broader concept of responsibility, there is also an asymmetry to the counter argument; why accept all the benefits through inheritance as a moral entitlement but not accept moral obligation towards moral claims from the past? In other words, from a moral standpoint to believe entitlements exists but obligations do not, when they stem from the same occurence, is entirely arbitrary. — Benkei
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