I think for the most part the internet as it is currently operating as is just another manifestation of humanity's propensity for stupidity. Or, to be more precise, it's just one more way humanity has turned something that has the potential for a lot of good into a device for a lot of silliness.

I wouldn't go as far as to say the internet is evil or a bad influence on society per se, just that it's a technological marvel that isn't being used to its full potential. To those who say we spend too much time on the internet, I'd reply that had we not had the internet we would have just been doing something else as a time sink.

As a way of communicating ideas and information, the internet has been an unrivaled success.

This is a good example of it:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisource/en/4/42/The_Legacy_of_Totalitarianism_in_a_Tundra.pdf

Novel written collaboratively and anonymously over the internet.

This and other fora make the need to be on the Internet less tedious and boring for the time being.

Age flattens everything. — The Great Whatever

It's not flattening my gut. Clearly your theory is flawed.

Ah, is that it.

Reading it as a kind of conversation, I'm reminded of moments of intense camaraderie. The enthusiasm is infectious, and it does feel more sincere and celebratory than merely mocking or contemptuous.

Maybe the meme, which appears in the novel and, I presume, all over 4chan, is a good exemplar for what you're talking about. But the thought occurs that these accumulating levels of mockery, irony, sincerity and sympathy already happen in face-to-face conversations, especially in banter; it's merely the form that differs. On the other hand, what's crucial in the message board is that this honesty happens more quickly and easily because of the anonymity, and this likely generates interactions of a different kind.

For me these kinds of irony seem to work mainly to enrich relationships that are both on and offline, rather than to distinguish on and offline relationships. But it's quite true that some of the most memorable moments I've had with certain people were chatting online, that it was more than just a peripheral means of communication, and more than just face-to-face conversation carried on by other means.

Just as you're unsympathetic to the appeal to a return to real-world interaction, I'm equally suspicious of the idea that online interaction is a liberation of the true potential of personal relationships, free of the artifice of politeness etc. I know you're not quite espousing that idea yourself, but I imagine there are those more optimistic than you who see it that way, who see a bright authentic cyberfuture rather than disillusionment.

Reading it as a novel, I can't say I like it, exactly. For a start, I'm much too unfamiliar with those communities. And it reads a bit like any old just-for-fun collaborative novel, only with the 4chan and PoMo references specific to their subculture. Plus I found it hard to wade through all the ropey tendrils of spooge.

I would add pornography to the list of the Internet's ills. Its effects, especially on young people, I think are being greatly understudied and underestimated. — Thorongil

I've studied pornography quite a lot. I haven't yet gathered sufficient data to form any reliable conclusions, though.

Modern life is one long struggle against boredom.

Possible reason for online interaction being more appealing to some...

- online communication eliminates non-verbal aspects of communication
- written communication draws on a set of communication traits different than spoken language. Most people have separate (but overlapping) vocabularies for comprehending and generating speech and text. People also think in another overlapping vocabulary.
- some people find it easier to express thinking through a keyboard than with a pencil or speech.

The differences between speech and writing have been noted for quite some time, but the printing press (Guttenberg died in 1468) brought the issue to the fore. The invention of readily usable typewriters (19th century) introduced a new element in communication: direct thought to print. A typewriter produces a line of print which is, apparently, psychologically quite different than a line of script. Electronic "word processors" (ghastly name) were introduced in the 1970s. A CRT screen displayed the pages of text entered by way of an electronic keyboard. The text was outputted to what was essentially an electronic typewriter. It wasn't quite WYSIWYG.

The Apple Macintosh introduced real WYSIWYG screens. The personal computer presented users with something different than ink on paper output of typewriters: now you could see what you were going to get, and it was easy to edit. No more frustrated ripping the paper out of the machine, wadding it up, and throwing it across the room. Now the writer could redo it at no psychological cost at all.

I experienced the progressing from manual typewriters to electronic typewriters to word processors to personal computers. I can vouch for the significance of the method of expression.

Modern life is one long struggle against boredom. — Thorongil

Just modern life, or the lives of those who don't have anything better to do?

Boredom pales in comparison to physical pain. Boredom is what made art, philosophy, sciences etc all possible. We've always struggled against boredom, it's just that today we're less and less able to find that psychological "flow" when we're forced into cubicles.

So modern life can be characterized as a bland persistence of laziness and servitude to our sensual desires, without the required energy to sublimate ourselves into the aesthetic. It's easy to stave off the boredom but it's ultimately ineffective because it's not aesthetic in nature. There's no effort required to be entertained.

Taken a long, hard look at it, have you? >:)

It isn't internet.
Internet make you see some things faster, that's all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unoMMru4-c0

Just as you're unsympathetic to the appeal to a return to real-world interaction, I'm equally suspicious of the idea that online interaction is a liberation of the true potential of personal relationships, free of the artifice of politeness etc. I know you're not quite espousing that idea yourself, but I imagine there are those more optimistic than you who see it that way, who see a bright authentic cyberfuture rather than disillusionment. — jamalrob

Honestly, I'm not really sympathetic to the virtues of human interaction generally. People are disappointing, and I don't think interpersonal interaction is as important or enriching or even as interesting as it's made out to be. I'd prefer a future in which people can mutually support each other without having to get in each other's way, unless they want to. We need each other materially, but not spiritually.

I don't see a future in the internet, only a distraction from present pains. The internet will probably merge with real life in the future, making the anonymity it offers now disappear, as it gets tamed by corporations and the government. At which point real life will be even more intolerable because it will meticulously log everything you do and flood you with advertisements.

Reading it as a novel, I can't say I like it, exactly. For a start, I'm much too unfamiliar with those communities. And it reads a bit like any old just-for-fun collaborative novel, only with the 4chan and PoMo references specific to their subculture. Plus I found it hard to wade through all the ropey tendrils of spooge. — jamalrob

I think it's good, and I'd read it over just about anything non-classical in a Barnes and Noble. But I'm in the target audience. It has a coherency to it and a genuine esotericism, despite being funny, and in a way, it does ruin some forms of literature with its quality. I can't read about a middle aged white woman trapped in a failing marriage who spiritualizes the prospect of having an affair anymore. I just can't do it.

I can't read about a middle aged white woman trapped in a failing marriage who spiritualizes the prospect of having an affair anymore. I just can't do it.

Concretely, which contemporary novels are you referring to here? Sounds like you've read a lot like this! (cf 'anymore')

sorry, jk, but seriously

I don't think 'post-ironic, trans-sincere' literature originates with the internet. Bartheleme had mastered the form by the late 60s. Maybe the internet just makes over-culturalization more widespread?

Actually I said that because I saw a one act play about it recently. The prototype for the novel is The Awakening, but there's a sense in which I think a lot of literature written by middle aged white women basically approximates The Awakening as a Platonic archetype. It's a book that had a profound effect on me, I'm just oversaturated now. It's like, I get it, but surely you have other emotions and thoughts as well? My mother is also a writer, and at her worst she veers into this territory, not quite, but the ethos is there. It's just an example, I could also have said: the rootless disaffected young white man who does a lot of drugs and has jumbled psychological crises of various sorts and meditates on how hard it is to relate to anyone.

I think the more pressing point about the post-irony is that on the internet it isn't affected or academic or literary or part of an experiment, but actually comes quite naturally as a mode of casual discourse, and as something superior its lesser cousins, like (God help us) 'snark'

the rootless disaffected young white man who does a lot of drugs and has jumbled psychological crises of various sorts and meditates on how hard it is to relate to anyone. — The Great Whatever

How do you know my soul!

This was written by a man but it captures the voice well...

"It is 1943—the height of the Second World War. With the men away at the front, Berlin has become a city of women.

On the surface, Sigrid Schröder is the model German soldier’s wife: She goes to work every day, does as much with her rations as she can, and dutifully cares for her meddling mother-in-law, all the while ignoring the horrific immoralities of the regime.

But behind this façade is an entirely different Sigrid, a woman of passion who dreams of her former Jewish lover, now lost in the chaos of the war. But Sigrid is not the only one with secrets—she soon finds herself caught between what is right and what is wrong, and what falls somewhere in the shadows between the two . . ."

I think the more pressing point about the post-irony is that on the internet it isn't affected or academic or literary or part of an experiment, but actually comes quite naturally as a mode of casual discourse, and as something superior its lesser cousins, like (God help us) 'snark'

Ok, yeah, I hear you, but I think I'm with jamalrob on this one. The natural, casual thing is a function of being in a safe space where there's no pressure play a certain role. The internet's one place, but just hanging out with friends at someone's house, or a bar, or around a campfire or wherever is just as good.

Nah, close friends have so much disgusting baggage, they've always all fucked each other and are sick of their personal ticks and so on. In-politics are unbearable.

that sounds unpleasant, yeah

And the solution is to exist in a beer commercial? :S

It's interesting to me that modern commentators don't know what to with the emphasis on philia in Aristotle's ethics, also central to Epicurus. I liked the Internet from the start for the fellowship of it. I found others with interests like mine and indeed kinks like mine. I'm someone who gets involved in voluntary groups and who tries to maintain friendships - some of my friendships have lasted 40+ years now. It's good for me to reflect on how people and relations shift. So in a sense my regular personality finds similar expression on the Net. I don't mean comradeship is for everyone - I'm just a philiac I suppose. And I'm still in love with the access to knowledge the Internet provides. The saddest things about the Web for me are embodied in Facebook - a Stalinist one-size interface designed to make money by being mendacious to me, making me its consumer and product.

Promises of the internet:
1) liberating technology provide decentralized networks, community-developed software and services.
2) cosmopolitanism, education accessible for all, fair competition based on merit and not heritage.
3) the possibility to publish and discuss topics incognito, or to critique power without risking punishment.
4) an alternative or parallel "world" open for exploration, inspiring creativity in a variety of fields.

Disappointments of the internet:
1) Private corporations provide centralized social networks, and exploit users' privacy as a product.
2) Marketing and bigotry thrive on easy and fast online distribution more than anything with content.
3) Unmoderated fora enable bullies to get away with persecution.
4) A world replete with creative works, freely available by file-sharing, might demotivate creativity.

The Internet contains valuable information buried in a global dump of misinformation, useless information and bad information. Smart people can sort through the trash and find valuable information. Unfortunately, most Internet users waste their time with the rest.