Rethinking it, I believe some people are just naturally self-possessed.

Being calm and composed doesn’t come naturally to me at all. I really need to work for it. In any case, I don’t see how this relates.

I didn't know "self-possessed" can mean calm. It's sometimes used to describe a person who has a strong sense of identity. They just sort of process events with a focus on their own interests. By contrast a person with a weak sense of identity seems wishy washy and maybe scatter-brained.

I was making up a story about a Christian who loses faith. The story just sort of unfolded on its own and it became clear that conflict has a limited effect. My character was involved in Pro-life politics for many years and that kept him focused on his Christian beliefs. That sense of being in combat did bring a sort of militancy to his identity. But when he lost faith, no amount of conflict would turn things around. He began to question all of his former efforts. What happens next depends a lot on his natural character.

I guess I'm suggesting that if personal identity is like music, each person comes with (or is) a particular kind of instrument. A strong sense of identity means the music comes out with clarity. It's not about winning or losing. It's about knowing who you are.

By contrast, a person who has a weak sense of identity may be playing opposing themes simultaneously: not this or that, but always both.

I don't know. What are your thoughts?

What are your thoughts? — frank

You're kinda all over the place so I'm not sure. Is that by design? Anyway, one thing that bugs is how you seem to strongly associate identity with ego. Is that how you see it?

How are you defining ego?

I think that ego has more to do with self-esteem and identity with the particulars that define a person. A person may have low self-esteem and identify as such. Low self-esteem can be part of a persons identity and if for whatever reason they suddenly and inexplicably had high self-esteem they wouldn't feel like themselves.

I don't think it makes sense to suggest that a person with high self-esteem (or low self-esteem, for that matter) necessarily has a "strong sense of identity." Our sense of identity, all things working relatively normal, is all but inescapable. Our attachment to this identity or appraisal of its value may wax and wane. Maybe some people try to lift their self-assessment via conflict.

I think that ego has more to do with self-esteem and identity with the particulars that define a person. A person may have low self-esteem and identify as such. Low self-esteem can be part of a persons identity and if for whatever reason they suddenly and inexplicably had high self-esteem they wouldn't feel like themselves. — praxis

I agree. Personal identity isn't ego by that definition.

I don't think it makes sense to suggest that a person with high self-esteem (or low self-esteem, for that matter) necessarily has a "strong sense of identity." — praxis

I don't think so either. Losing can reinforce identity by producing a journey of overcoming, think of the American black identity. Too much losing can be lethal to identity if it results in hopelessness, not that hopelessness is necessarily a bad thing.

Our sense of identity, all things working relatively normal, is all but inescapable. — praxis

For some people, yes. There are those who can't carry a heavy sense of identity. So their identity is the identity-less. As I mentioned, they're probably playing opposing themes.

Have you ever read any Schopenhauer?

In your discussion with Praxis several terms are getting mixed together. Ego has a particular meaning in Freuds psychodynamics. The Ego mediates between the life-urges of the Id and the society-oriented Superego.

Karen Horney asserted that low self-esteem leads to the development of a personality that excessively craves approval and affection and exhibits an extreme desire for personal achievement. According to Alfred Adler’s theory of personality, low self-esteem leads people to strive to overcome their perceived inferiorities and to develop strengths or talents in compensation. Along the lines of Praxis' question, if someone has low self esteem and presents as a very needy person, is that their 'real' identity? A lot of people are needy, domineering, or manipulative their whole lives; it's hard to suppose that needy, dominating, or manipulative isn't who they are, at some point.

"Identity" is a front-burner issue just now. The Oxford Research Encyclopedia says that "...both contribute to a self that is not a unitary construct comprising only the individual as he or she is now, but also past and possible selves. Self-knowledge may overlap more or less with others’ views of the self." and "The origins of the self are also manifold and can be considered from developmental, biological, intrapsychic, and interpersonal perspectives. The self is connected to core motives (e.g., coherence, agency, and communion) and is manifested in the form of both personal identities and social identities."

Mostly people use and understand these words 'loosely'. But sometimes it helps to reflect on the recent (20th century) history of the terms. "Ego" is transactional, not a thermometer of self esteem. Are the distortions of low self-esteem (per Karen Horney or Alfred Adler) a person's real identity?

Just a thought.

The vigor with which you seek interpersonal conflict reflects what? The need to develop personality? Or perhaps personality needs an occasional workout to remain alive. — frank

It can be revealing to some psychoanalytic literature on the subject. However, overpsychologizing the subject is happening here.

Mostly people use and understand these words 'loosely'. But sometimes it helps to reflect on the recent (20th century) history of the terms. "Ego" is transactional, not a thermometer of self esteem. Are the distortions of low self-esteem (per Karen Horney or Alfred Adler) a person's real identity? — Bitter Crank

I would say yes, those distortions are aspects of personality. There's no sane person down there waiting to pop out. What do you think?

Do you know how Nietzsche's use of "ego" compares with Freud's?

However, overpsychologizing the subject is happening here. — Posty McPostface

What do you mean?

Karen Horney asserted that low self-esteem leads to the development of a personality that excessively craves approval and affection and exhibits an extreme desire for personal achievement. According to Alfred Adler’s theory of personality, low self-esteem leads people to strive to overcome their perceived inferiorities and to develop strengths or talents in compensation. — Bitter Crank

I imagine that low self-esteem has various expressions. This seems rather limited in view.

overpsychologizing the subject is happening here. — Posty McPostface

Can a topic in psychology be over psychologized? Interesting concept.

Have you ever read any Schopenhauer? — frank

No.

What do you mean? — frank

Read about overdetermination.

Can a topic in psychology be over psychologized? Interesting concept. — Bitter Crank

Hard to say. It's not in my ability to assess the merit of psychological profundity.

Do you know how Nietzsche's use of "ego" compares with Freud's? — frank

No. The best I could do is a Google search and pull a quote or two. like: Freud bought Nietzsche's collected works, but he felt that Nietzsche was more to be resisted than studied. Apparently Freud felt that Nietzsche's ideas had the potential of deflecting his (SF's) thinking in a direction he didn't wish to go.

Whether what I just parroted is true, false, or not even wrong... don't know.

Hmm. Now I'm more curious. I'm reading some other books now, though (trying to assess Uncle Karl).