"One can also imagine someone's having learnt the game without ever learning or formulating rules." — Terrapin Station
Again, it is worth noting the distinction between explicating the rules of a game and participating in the game. That's the wedge being driven in here. — Banno
Ostensive is used in linguistics to denote how the meaning of a word is given to someone else - usually a word that has a more abstract concept, that is a “feature” or “characteristic” of some intimated object (colour, size, quality, or other abstract term like “dozen” or “month”). — I like sushi
He doesn’t mention, up to now, the meaning of “ostensive” teaching by showing what something is by using it - such as balancing on a contraption of two circular objects connected via a triangular frame with a chain wrapped around two smaller circular objects that are attached to the frame and to one of the larger circular objects. Merely pointing at the object and saying “bike” means nothing if you have no idea what the hell it is for and why you should hive a damn. — I like sushi
I agree that it may be difficult to imagine someone knowing how to play chess without having learnt the rules of chess, but consider that children learn how to speak before they learn any rules of language, by mimicking the behaviours of others. Also, bear in mind that Wittgenstein is attacking certain prevalent philosophical assumptions of his time, including those of his Tractatus, that language is exclusively a private, mental phenomenon. He is trying to remind us that language is instead (or also?) a shared, public, cultural and behavioural phenomenon. — Luke
Ermintrude — unenlightened
I am reading The Republic by Plato. — Dagny
To repeat: in certain cases, especially when one points 'to the shape' or 'to the number' there are characteristic experiences and ways of pointing—'characteristic' because they recur often (not always) when shape or number are 'meant'.
Read carefully 34-36. Notice at 35 he describes how there is no bodily action which has a necessary relation with "I mean the shape", or the colour. No necessary relation means that there cannot be a rule. This is why he claims a separation between what the speaker intends and what the hearer interprets at 34, because there is no necessary relation (like cause and effect) between the two activities, allowing them to be associated. There is nothing to signify to the hearer in any necessary way, what is intended by the speaker. There is no rule which the hearer can refer to, such as "this bodily action means colour", or "that bodily action means shape". Even if there are characteristic actions which occur often, they do not always occur, [so this excludes the possibility of a rule]. He even repeats this at 35:
To repeat: in certain cases, especially when one points 'to the shape' or 'to the number' there are characteristic experiences and ways of pointing—'characteristic' because they recur often (not always) when shape or number are 'meant'.
Wittgenstein is describing this type of learning as one which does not involve rules. — Metaphysician Undercover
And that is precisely not what W is talking about. He is referring to “language,” as in like this here thing we’re using now. People with no language can, and do, function in the world.
When W says “ostensive” he is talking about articulting to someone what something “is called”/“named” not simply flapping around and making noises that are to be taken to be associated with the action - much like me pointing at a bike does nothing to tell you it’s purpose; but I can explain further (by speaking) and then show you. — I like sushi
That is: ostensive act (pointing) + utterance of words. If this coupling is not kept in mind, the discussion here will be unintelligible. — StreetlightX
But how is the person to whom the explanation is being given supposed to differentiate when you are pointing at one feature instead of another, if the only change in the "pointing" is your (private, mental) concentration of attention. — Luke
On my reading, Wittgenstein indicates that understanding an (ostensive) definition is not something which happens only in the mind of the listener or student, and neither is it something which is only tied to a specific set of accompanying behaviours; rather, it depends on the wider circumstances surrounding the language game. — Luke
The meaning of a word/concept can never be the result of one's private mental happenings. There is nothing within you that gives meaning to a word. — Sam26
as though you could give meaning to the word by some internal mechanism apart from social context. — Sam26
I agree with the first part of this, but the last half raises questions. What could understanding what it means to play chess, be, other than specific behaviors associated within the social context of the game? Are you talking about private behavior? I agree that it depends on the wider social context, but aren't these wider social contexts or surroundings "accompanying behaviors?" — Sam26
This example is not even a language-game, it doesn't have the requisite social settings. — Sam26
We've jumped a bit ahead, because in this early part of the book he's trying to show us something about the ostensive model, and how it sometimes lacks what is needed for someone to learn what is meant by a word or concept. — Sam26
Wittgenstein concludes that: "neither the expression "to intend the definition in such and-such a way" nor the expression "to interpret the definition in such-and-such a way" stands for a process which accompanies the giving and hearing of the definition." Again, understanding a definition is usually judged by how the hearer goes on to use the word and react to the word's use. It usually has little to do with a speaker's intention or a hearer's interpretation. — Luke
The main point I was wanting to make is that when one points to something and makes a sound, one cannot point to the sound. One does not need to understand the composition and function of the moon to learn the name, but one needs to understand that human sounds have meaning, and that cannot be told in meaningful sounds or by pointing. Small children have that moment of revelation, and cows never do. — unenlightened
Before moving on to and past §37 - which begins a new line of argument dealing with names - do people have questions or interpretive issues they want to raise with the discussion of ostensive explanation in the sections covered so far? — StreetlightX
As much as possible, I would like to encourage everyone to offer their own interpretations of important passages. I think that this is what is meant by "reading it together". — Metaphysician Undercover
And not just interpretations, but comments, too--do you think the author is right or wrong? — Terrapin Station
Discussion of whether the author is right or wrong would digress into endless bickering, because in philosophy this question usually cannot be resolved. My opinion is that such discussions should be brought to another thread so as not to hinder our progress. — Metaphysician Undercover
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