education and critical thinking. That's what worked during the '50s in the States — Wallows
There is some Russophobia in this thread. — Wallows
I think that Putin plays his game brilliantly. Thanks to his earlier life as a career spy, who rose to be the director of the FSB. And he has a clear objective.If you sit down and think about it, Russia only stands to lose from its current disinformation campaign. People can only be fooled so many times. — Wallows
I don't at all agree with speech restrictions per se, including general prohibitions against lying. — Terrapin Station
I'm disappointed, BC. I know that you both reason and think (and feel) better than this.Sure; what the Russians (previously the Soviets) are doing to us is disruptive..., — Bitter Crank
That the Russians have leverage over the US President and the president is compromised like this is the most outstanding intelligence coup of all time.But, I must ask. What has the Russian active measures campaign resulted in, which goes all the way back to the creation of the KGB and now FSB? That Trump got elected? — Wallows
That the Russians have leverage over the US President and the president is compromised like this is the most outstanding intelligence coup of all time. — ssu
Lies between nations is more difficult. Perhaps some war.... — tim wood
Unknown? Really?The degree to which this has happened is still a known unknown. — Wallows
Special counsel Robert Mueller’s team has indicted or gotten guilty pleas from 33 people and three companies that we know of — the latest being former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen.
That group is composed of five former Trump advisers, 26 Russian nationals, three Russian companies, one California man, and one London-based lawyer. Seven of these people (including now all five former Trump aides) have pleaded guilty.
Russophobia — Wallows
People can only be fooled so many times. — Wallows
Of course, one has to follow it and not retreat to one's own echo chamber. — ssu
I'm thinking that's because you operate with a personal axiom that you can expect the truth, and what departs from the truth is a departure from your norm. — tim wood
Please do check then and correct me if I'm wrong.One thing you and Trump have in common is that if either of you said the sky is blue on a sunny day, I'd be inclined to fact check it. — frank
Yet please understand how Russia works and how different it is from other countries.Beware of bias. Beware of propoganda. Beware of people who are preying on your darker nature. Be aware of what constitutes your darker nature. — frank
Great powers do that. They do influence especially smaller countries in their "sphere of influence". For example France meddles a lot in the politics of it's old African colonies. Yet trying to meddle directly in Russian affairs? Or the Chinese? That Russia had an success with this, that Trump retweets Russian disinformation etc, is quite astounding.They outright admit that the USA meddles in foreign elections and other kinds of domestic politics of foreign states. — Πετροκότσυφας
Please do give an example of this in Russia. I truly would like to know this.among their examples of American interventionism you'll find that of the US meddling in Russian elections. — Πετροκότσυφας
And how many are disconnected or just uninterested? Those are the focus group of disinformation. In fact, one could argue that the whole objective of active measures such as disinformation is to disconnect and confuse people.Anyone who's not totally disconnected with reality can see that events, actions, facts and "scandals", of varying magnitude, are rationalised and/or ignored all the time. — Πετροκότσυφας
There is some Russophobia in this thread. — Wallows
If the attitude within the Russian leadership is that we are "the enemy", then "Russophobia" is justified. — Metaphysician Undercover
Handpicked Yeltsin??? Where on Earth do you get that idea?Given the fact that Clinton and the IMF hand-picked Yeltsin — Πετροκότσυφας
Trump surely isn't coerced, he was a willing partner here.Trump retweeting Russian (or any other kind of) disinformation is just Trump being Trump, not a success of the Russians. It's not like there were negotiations and they convinced him to do something he didn't want. — Πετροκότσυφας
If the attitude within the Russian leadership is that we are "the enemy", then "Russophobia" is justified. — Metaphysician Undercover
From the OP:Oh sure. There's no problem that a little hot war won't fix. It's been working out great up to now, so why not do it more often? — SophistiCat
On the assumption you agree there is a serious problem - and maybe you don't - what solutions can you think of?What is the best defense - that at the same time is not a cure worse than than the disease, as the Patriot Act is? — tim wood
How many options were there?When there are options, and you choose one of these options, you pick it! — Πετροκότσυφας
Yep. Sometimes what people say they thought earlier is actually what they thought earlier.I guess they must have been forced to be involved and be involved exactly in the the way they did. Some sort of fatalism, I presume — Πετροκότσυφας
Sure, it would.Had Putin given a 10bn loan to Trump to boost his chances for success, the whole world would have imploded — Πετροκότσυφας
One thing is to get journalists themselves educated before anybody starts a disinformation campaign. Disinformation is most effective when people cannot see it, when they are totally ignorant about the subject at hand. Just look how confused the Western media was when Russian troops invaded Crimea and simply took off their Russian flags and spread the outrageous lie that these well armed, uniformily clad, young fit soldiers were "Crimean volunteers", not Russian paratroops. (That's actually the lie that Putin did admit being wrong, but hey, he could had been silent to this day about it.). In the end you have to choose between the least of evils, and the choices are often far from obvious. Sometimes the least worst option is to do nothing. I am not saying that this is the case here. I don't know what the best approach to deal with information warfare (as Russians themselves like to refer to it) would be. — SophistiCat
Great powers exist. And even small countries can be very hypocrite and have double standards, because states are utterly selfish in the end. Somehow many have this idea that the US is exceptional in this.And U.S. (or great power) exceptionalism is not a taboo either, but it remains exceptionalism (and a double standard). In a way that's what makes a state a "great power"; it exempts itself from the rules others are expected to follow, till people are conditioned to accept it as "ordinary". — Πετροκότσυφας
No. It was given to the Russian government. Please read more carefully what I say. The loan the International Monetary Fund gave as Russian media now tells it:That's crap. The loan was specifically given to a candidate in order to boost his chances of election. — Πετροκότσυφας
granted a US$10.2 billion loan to Russia that enabled the embattled government to throw huge sums at recompensing paying long-owed back wages and pensions to millions of Russians — some overdue wages arrived just before (or indeed on) June 16, polling day.
The West has few means at its disposal to influence the Russian electorate, especially since too blatant an endorsement of Mr. Yeltsin could backfire with nationalists. But the West does have money to encourage market reforms here and is willing to use it.
At $10.2 billion, the fund's loan is $1.2 billion more than had been discussed just a month ago. Significantly, more than $4 billion of the loan is to be provided during the first year. That is especially important because Mr. Yeltsin has signed a number of decrees to increase social spending in the run-up to the presidential election. On Feb. 15, in announcing his intention to seek re-election, Mr. Yeltsin also promised to pay $2.8 billion in back wages, addressing a compelling emotional issue in a country where many laborers, scientists and teachers have not been paid for months.
Still, the loan will not be provided on the basis of trust. There are steps the Russians must take in order to keep the money flowing. Before the first installment can be disbursed, Mr. Camdessus must present his recommendation to the I.M.F.'s executive board, which is expected to give formal approval for the loan by mid-April.
In the meantime, Western officials said, Russia must demonstrate its commitment to economic reform by phasing out tariffs on the export of natural gas and by beginning to eliminate tariffs on the export of oil. All export tariffs on oil are to end by July 1.
Nothing? Are you saying that Yeltsin had nothing to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union being so peaceful?Which of course has nothing to do with Yeltsin's "accomplishments" and USA's involvement. — Πετροκότσυφας
(NY Times, AUG. 25, 1991) President Boris N. Yeltsin of the Russian federated republic said today that his republic formally recognized the independence of Estonia and Latvia and urged President Mikhail S. Gorbachev of the Soviet Union and the rest of the world to do the same.
Mr. Yeltsin issued decrees recognizing the two republics. Lithuania, which declared its independence in March, has already been recognized by Russia as a sovereign state.
Actually I agree with you. But does the phrase "Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead" mean anything to you? Consider it. And Hitler pushed and pushed and pushed. When he had got all that pushing could get, then he invaded. No, there's no easy solution - or no one has found it, yet - which leaves the not-so-easy solutions. I'm in favour of easy solutions; I am not in favour of no solutions.War? Are you fucking nuts? — SophistiCat
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.