There is some Russophobia in this thread. I don't see the point of disliking Russia. Rather we should dislike the current KGB infested leadership of Russia. I lived in Poland for a good while, and the Russophobia is very strong is post-communist states like Poland or the Balkan/Baltic states. So, whatever propaganda is being pushed by Russia, it's not on the airwaves in those states (Belarus being the exception given it's rosy relationship with Russia). In other words, they are well guarded already against Russia.

If you sit down and think about it, Russia only stands to lose from its current disinformation campaign. People can only be fooled so many times.

Instead of creating a ministry of truth, I think the money would be better spent on education and critical thinking. That's what worked during the '50s in the States, so why not try it again?

education and critical thinking. That's what worked during the '50s in the States — Wallows

What piece of education and critical thinking worked so well in the 1950s? That there was a homosexual communist behind every 10th desk in the State Department? That the Soviets had a huge stockpile of atomic bombs? That blacks were not allowed to live in the suburbs? That Leave It To Beaver reflected the American reality? And so on and so forth.

Sure; what the Russians (previously the Soviets) are doing to us is disruptive, but they are probably not doing anything we are not trying to do to them, at least in terms of disruption. You and I have friends. Nations do not have friends; they have interests. It is an interest of the US to protect our infrastructure from cyber attack -- something we don't seem to be doing very well at. Thieves and national operatives are ripping off data left and right. Interfering with our elections? Did the dimwits in Florida need any help screwing up their election mechanics? If our voting system isn't secure, whose fault is that--theirs or ours?

People lie. Corporations lie. Holy Mother Church lies. Other countries lie. The first step in defense is to recognize that lies are part of statecraft, as well as part of business, religion, and ordinary life as we know it. Nobody lies all the time, so one should look for the advantageous lie when something doesn't smell right.

When you set foot on a car lot (new car, used car) just remember: it isn't in the interest of General Motors, Toyota, or VW to be perfectly frank about the nature of their products. Caveat emptor!

I'm fine with parsing some things as contractual fraud, and I think there should be prohibitions against contractual fraud.

Contractual fraud doesn't obtain when we're talking about subjective assessments/judgment calls, though. So "this is a great car" wouldn't count.

Contractual fraud has to be based on objective, factual matters. For example, if you were contractually promised a car with a radio that can access Sirius XM and you don't receive that. Contractual fraud can obtain via ommissions, too. If you buy food containing eggs, but it makes no mention of this on the ingredient list, for example.

I don't at all agree with speech restrictions per se, including general prohibitions against lying.

There is some Russophobia in this thread. — Wallows

If the attitude within the Russian leadership is that we are "the enemy", then "Russophobia" is justified.

If you sit down and think about it, Russia only stands to lose from its current disinformation campaign. People can only be fooled so many times. — Wallows

I think that Putin plays his game brilliantly. Thanks to his earlier life as a career spy, who rose to be the director of the FSB. And he has a clear objective.

You see what Russia wants is that the multinational organizations like the EU and NATO to dissolve or severely weaken. This weakening makes Russia to have more say especially if Western countries have to negotiate with it on a bilateral basis. How to weaken these multinational organizations and institutions is simply to get the people not to trust their own states and especially multinational organizations like the EU.

Yet one has to remember that the whole disinformation or active measures campaign isn't based on totally artificial or made up reasons. Americans are wary and disappointed in their political establishment and the Europeans are somewhat dissappointed to the EU. These things would happen even without Russia. But as they exist, it's easy to nurture that disenchantment and enforce these kinds of current undertows with a disinformation campaign. And that's why the campaigns have been so successfull.

I don't at all agree with speech restrictions per se, including general prohibitions against lying. — Terrapin Station

I'm thinking that's because you operate with a personal axiom that you can expect the truth, and what departs from the truth is a departure from your norm. But what if your life, or important aspects of it, are essentially lies? We already accept that some lies can be punished; I wonder if we're rapidly approaching - and if some people already live in - a world of lies. GM, for example, might lie about a car they make, in substantive ways, to make money. That's easy. Imagine entities or people - and we have such as President of the United States - who lie not for specific gain, but to destroy the possibility of the truth?

I argue that one possibility for defending against big lies is force. In a civil society, through law. In an uncivil society, which would be the result of the destruction of truth, maybe uncivil force. What would you suggest?

Sure; what the Russians (previously the Soviets) are doing to us is disruptive..., — Bitter Crank

I'm disappointed, BC. I know that you both reason and think (and feel) better than this.

What he said. Amen.

But, I must ask. What has the Russian active measures campaign resulted in, which goes all the way back to the creation of the KGB and now FSB? That Trump got elected? America is experiencing an economic boom from fracking, and other economic factors.

In my view, the real threat is from China, if we're going to jump on the scaremongering bandwagon. The amount of IP theft and their mercantilist based economy is a force to be reckoned with. Trump is a sideshow.

Nothing the Russians made possible is separate from interested parties in the U.S.A.. The same goes for leverage exerted by China. What Trump conceals is exactly who the benefactors of such arrangements may be. And he does it while pretending to be opposed to them.
Pretty slick side show.

Good journalism is the major ingredient. Plus a public willingness to learn. Has the same effect on bullshit as bleach does on bacteria.

But, I must ask. What has the Russian active measures campaign resulted in, which goes all the way back to the creation of the KGB and now FSB? That Trump got elected? — Wallows

That the Russians have leverage over the US President and the president is compromised like this is the most outstanding intelligence coup of all time.

Historically in my view no spy scandal does top this. Even the stealing of nuclear secrets (the Klaus Fuchs case) isn't as big, as it's obvious that good enough physicists can create a nuclear weapon even without stolen information.

That the US president doubts Americas own alliance, goes against his own intelligence services and sides with Vladimir Putin (even if later tries to change his remarks) and many time states Russian views is simply unbelievable. Naturally Trump's own administration, that got immediately rid of the russophiles in the Trump team, tries to show that everything is normal: that the US policies haven't changed, but a lot of damage has already been done. Biggest damage is that people understand that the US is an untrustworthy ally, where corruption is so rampant that even an presidential candidate and later president in Office can be influence by a competitor nation. And that his supporters are totally happy with this.

That the Russians have leverage over the US President and the president is compromised like this is the most outstanding intelligence coup of all time. — ssu

The degree to which this has happened is still a known unknown. We don't know how much Trump is corrupted by Russia. I say we wait and refrain from judgements as to how influenced he is.

Lies between nations is more difficult. Perhaps some war.... — tim wood

Oh sure. There's no problem that a little hot war won't fix. It's been working out great up to now, so why not do it more often?

We all like to moan about how awful our leaders are, but when you read something like this, you realize that it could've been a lot worse...

The degree to which this has happened is still a known unknown. — Wallows

Unknown? Really?

Perhaps it might be even worse, but that it has happened is quite clear already. It was perhaps unclear in 2016, when Trump's appraisal of Putin and Russia was a bit odd (among other odd things with Trump). I personally noticed the odd thing in an article that was questioning why Trump had put Carter Page into his foreign policy advisor team as that was totally off from the ordinary GOP thinking. Now we have a better picture.

Special counsel Robert Mueller’s team has indicted or gotten guilty pleas from 33 people and three companies that we know of — the latest being former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen.

That group is composed of five former Trump advisers, 26 Russian nationals, three Russian companies, one California man, and one London-based lawyer. Seven of these people (including now all five former Trump aides) have pleaded guilty.

But we don't know. Yeah, sure. But this really is only now about the degree. Otherwise there's a problem with this argument.

You see, to give a proof the argument that Trump furthers Russian agenda you just need to listen to Trump. Has Trump any time something negative or critical about Putin? Never. He has deliberately altered a speach with taking out the pre-written part about the US commitment to NATO at a NATO summits. Trump makes this all very simple to follow. Of course, one has to follow it and not retreat to one's own echo chamber.

Russophobia — Wallows

That's a Russian propaganda term, which in practice means any word or action by an outside actor or an opposition figure that rubs the Russian leadership the wrong way. Russophobic is an update of the Soviet-era go-to term Anti-Soviet, which was used just as freely by Soviet leadership and propaganda.

People can only be fooled so many times. — Wallows

You couldn't be more wrong. Everything we've learned indicates that people can be fooled as long as they are willing to be fooled, which is most of the time.

Of course, one has to follow it and not retreat to one's own echo chamber. — ssu

One thing you and Trump have in common is that if either of you said the sky is blue on a sunny day, I'd be inclined to fact check it.

Beware of bias. Beware of propoganda. Beware of people who are preying on your darker nature. Be aware of what constitutes your darker nature.

I'm thinking that's because you operate with a personal axiom that you can expect the truth, and what departs from the truth is a departure from your norm. — tim wood

No, it's not that. I really am a free speech absolutist, where I realize that's going to include lots of expressions of lies, offensive remarks, slander/libel, incitement, etc.

Part of my aim there is to get people to not put such a ridiculous amount of weight on what other people say, especially not when it's purely based on what people say and not based on actions, other sources of knowledge, etc. too. I want people to be skeptical in general.

Although I don't consider myself "just a libertarian" any longer--I'm rather a very idiosyncratic brand of "libertarian socialist," my disposition when it comes to laws that are meant to prohibit things, to control what people can choose to do, etc., is still very much that of a minarchist (close-to-but-not-quite-anarchist) libertarian. You can easily sign me up for removing laws. It's much harder to get me on board for creating more laws..

One thing you and Trump have in common is that if either of you said the sky is blue on a sunny day, I'd be inclined to fact check it. — frank

Please do check then and correct me if I'm wrong.

Beware of bias. Beware of propoganda. Beware of people who are preying on your darker nature. Be aware of what constitutes your darker nature. — frank

Yet please understand how Russia works and how different it is from other countries.

It's peacetime deterrence would be with any other country seen as preparations for war. Russia understands that it's not as strong as the US and it's allies, but it can improve it's position by smart intelligence operations.

The bias a lot of people in America have is the "we likely do it also"-bias. This is really a bias because many times no serious thought goes into this, just with the assumption that because the US has it's CIA, it has to do totally similar things as the Russians. Well, the fact is that you can see these information warfare operations that the US has done especially in hindsight. The reasoning to the Iraq War is a classic information campaign, pushed by the White House. The help that the State department gave to the Serbian opposition in throwing out Milosevic is another classic move (which the Russians use as the justification for their own operations). Yet do you think that the US would openly start meddling in Russian elections? They think, after Operation Ajax in Iran, assume that there wouldn't be blowback with direct meddling in Russian politics?

And here is the utter brilliance of Putin. Any ordinary politician or even an intelligence chief would think that this kind of operation, direct interference on the elections and also direct assistance to one candidate (with the candidate being totally open to this) would be extremely risky and create a huge blowback as Americans would go ape shit crazy about the thing. But Putin likely understood this wouldn't happen.

You see, the outrage would be seemed as partisan. It's the losing democrats bitching about losing to Trump. The Trump voters simply would see it as a way that to take away their victory. And many Americans will want to sideline the humiliating issue and want to forget it. I actually believe that in a few decades young Americans will be totally ignorant about this whole event. Not only is the whole debacle very humiliating for the Republican party, but actually also for the intelligence services too.

This is because after the Mueller report comes out, the obvious question would be then "How did the system let this to happen"? One of the jobs that the FBI is stated to do is to keep taps on foreing intelligence services and their operations in the US. Why was the FBI asleep on the switch? Hence there isn't this urgency from the intelligence services to look at their own performance. Actually the whole thing would have been over if total idiot Trump wouldn't have fired Comey.

Above all, it's the American voter who did vote for Trump who will not get it. He or she will likely go with the excuse that the whole thing is blown out of proportion by the leftist liberal media. That a Republican presidential candidate conspired with a foreign nation that isn't even an ally won't sink in. The Trump supporter will fail to look at the issue objectively. And that's the brilliance of what Russian intelligence services did.

They outright admit that the USA meddles in foreign elections and other kinds of domestic politics of foreign states. — Πετροκότσυφας

Great powers do that. They do influence especially smaller countries in their "sphere of influence". For example France meddles a lot in the politics of it's old African colonies. Yet trying to meddle directly in Russian affairs? Or the Chinese? That Russia had an success with this, that Trump retweets Russian disinformation etc, is quite astounding.

among their examples of American interventionism you'll find that of the US meddling in Russian elections. — Πετροκότσυφας

Please do give an example of this in Russia. I truly would like to know this.

Some may say that the US had Yeltsin as "their man", yet that the US (especially the Clinton administration) pinned hopes that he would make reforms in Russia is quite different to this when you think about it.

Anyone who's not totally disconnected with reality can see that events, actions, facts and "scandals", of varying magnitude, are rationalised and/or ignored all the time. — Πετροκότσυφας

And how many are disconnected or just uninterested? Those are the focus group of disinformation. In fact, one could argue that the whole objective of active measures such as disinformation is to disconnect and confuse people.

There is some Russophobia in this thread. — Wallows


If the attitude within the Russian leadership is that we are "the enemy", then "Russophobia" is justified. — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes, I think it would be. But (in my view), the new 'truth' (i.e. lies) comes out of the West, not Russia. Presidents Bush and Blair introduced the concept of defining truth by constant repetition, although they were just completing what had gone before. Now 'experts' are treated with contempt, and truth is something you create by repeating your own beliefs over and over, ignoring any factual objections that may be offered.

Given the fact that Clinton and the IMF hand-picked Yeltsin — Πετροκότσυφας

Handpicked Yeltsin??? Where on Earth do you get that idea?

Did Clinton handpick Yeltsin to climb on a tank in front of the White House (the Russian one in Moscow) and oppose the "August Putsch" and be the leader opposing the Soviet establishment? Because that was basically the reason that Yeltsin, then the head of the Russian Government, got to lead new Russia as the Soviet Union quickly collapsed afterwards. If I remember correctly, it was Yeltsin that abolished the Soviet Union.

The idea that the US picked Yeltsin because the IMF gave a loan is really absurd. Yes, it is support, but how does this mean they picked Yeltsin? Who else would the Americans have picked? The communists? If the other candidate was Zyuganov of the Communist party, how much picking sides there was? Would Clinton pick a candidate riding on nationalism and Soviet nostalgia and the candidate of the party that was (and is) the immediate successor of the Soviet Communist Party (that Yeltsin banned)? Basically Americans were more like forced to back Yeltsin. Especially when you remember that Russia had the Rubble crisis in 1998, one IMF loan here or there doesn't matter so much.

No, the Clinton administration just assumed that everything would be fine and dandy and democratic with Yeltsin and simply hoped for the best. As your article emphasizes, then the Russian leader was then at an extremely weak position, which naturally the Americans thought as the new normal. Yeltsin couldn't even handle the Chechens and everyone was back then writing off the Russian military. And actually the article you refer to notes the obvious thing: Yeltsin had the same policies, starting from opposing NATO enlargement, as Putin has now. But then, American leadership seemed to have thought that Russia is over, it will never recover as obviously oil prices couldn't rise.

In fact those who supported in a crucial way Yeltsin in the elections were the infamous oligarchs of the period. They did the promoting, they supported the media campaign roughly giving over 700 million dollars to Yeltsin's campaign. They likely got their money back until Putin cracked on them.

And finally, how much CIA involvement was there in this support of Yeltsin? There is really a profound difference with giving public and Private support or picking sides in an election (as even the EU sometime does) and an intelligence service operation.

Trump retweeting Russian (or any other kind of) disinformation is just Trump being Trump, not a success of the Russians. It's not like there were negotiations and they convinced him to do something he didn't want. — Πετροκότσυφας

Trump surely isn't coerced, he was a willing partner here.

After all, who could know that one of the main missions of the FBI is to keep taps on the actions and operations of foreign intelligence services in the US?

If the attitude within the Russian leadership is that we are "the enemy", then "Russophobia" is justified. — Metaphysician Undercover

So, likewise the Russians are justified in Americaphobia? Everyone is justified in their phobias about anyone they even suspect might see them as the enemy? Does it matter who sees whom as the enemy first? Might paranoia not be universal when it comes to international affairs? If it is universal does that make it justifiable?

Oh sure. There's no problem that a little hot war won't fix. It's been working out great up to now, so why not do it more often? — SophistiCat

From the OP:

What is the best defense - that at the same time is not a cure worse than than the disease, as the Patriot Act is? — tim wood

On the assumption you agree there is a serious problem - and maybe you don't - what solutions can you think of?

I agree, war is not good, but sometimes a little is good, and better than a lot. There's an argument to be made that the cause of freedom finds it necessary from time to time. Both Putin and the Chinese are pushing, each in their own way. I'm old enough to really not have to worry too much about it, but I hate to leave the world a worse place that it needs to be, for lack of a little courage.

Your proposal to go to war over fake news suggests the knee-jerk reaction of a right-wing authoritarian. The priority is not so much to deal with the situation as to punish the transgressor, no matter the cost and the consequences.

As to actually addressing the problem, you have to accept the reality that many problems cannot be successfully resolved - as in Mission Accomplished! - only mitigated or contained at best. In the end you have to choose between the least of evils, and the choices are often far from obvious. Sometimes the least worst option is to do nothing. I am not saying that this is the case here. I don't know what the best approach to deal with information warfare (as Russians themselves like to refer to it) would be.

Education (counter-propaganda) and exposure may help to mitigate and contain, but not every such effort is going to be successful, and some may even be counterproductive. Simply debunking lies can actually have a blowback effect, as some studies suggest.

Political pressure? Sanctions? I have a feeling that these are the kinds of direct responses that are easy to sell to your domestic audience, because they show that you are doing something and being firm. But do they actually work? I am not so sure.

War? Are you fucking nuts?

When there are options, and you choose one of these options, you pick it! — Πετροκότσυφας

How many options were there?

I guess they must have been forced to be involved and be involved exactly in the the way they did. Some sort of fatalism, I presume — Πετροκότσυφας

Yep. Sometimes what people say they thought earlier is actually what they thought earlier.

Yet my point here is that US moves here aren't out of the realm of ordinary influencing. Now with a small Latin American country they, the US, could and have been far more hostile and rough as these countries have been considered the backyard of the US. Yet with a nuclear state like Russia things have to be handled far more delicately, just as with the Yeltsin and the US. To try to influence opinions, views and policies isn't a taboo. After all, the job of all ambassadors is to influence their country of residence.

Yet the Trump-Russia axis is quite different from the ordinary. And for Russia to get involved with US politics in such way is very much "out-of-the-box" moves.

(And anyway, after the Soviet Union collapsed there indeed was a brief window when Russians were totally open to new ideas and genuinely open to the West. During that brief time you would have to had larger than life politicians to understand the exceptionality of the situation and do a dramatic reallignment either by truly accepting Russia into the West and into NATO or dissolve NATO. But that didn't happen. We had mediocre ordinary politicians that didn't use the opportunity. And with the war in Kosovo, that sealed Russian thinking to what it is today.)

Had Putin given a 10bn loan to Trump to boost his chances for success, the whole world would have imploded — Πετροκότσυφας

Sure, it would.

Because that IMF loan went to the Russian state, not to the personal pockets of one individual reality TV celebrity. Yeltsin's administration could pay salaries to government employees thanks perhaps to the IMF loan. When you give Trump money, that isn't the same as giving money to the US and it uses it to pay public sector salaries.

Furthermore, it's really difficult now to understand how perilous the situation of the collapse of the Soviet Union was. For example my country was really making plans how to cope with masses of refugees if there would happen a civil war in Russia (as we have an +1000km border with Russia). We seldom give credit to the many Soviet politicians that made the disintegration so peaceful. Now with the ongoing war between Russia and Ukraine we can indeed imagine that the Soviet Union could have gone the way of Yugoslavia and disintegrated to a bloody civil war (which it actually did in the Caucasus), and then we could have seen deaths in the hundreds of thousands or even a million or so.

. In the end you have to choose between the least of evils, and the choices are often far from obvious. Sometimes the least worst option is to do nothing. I am not saying that this is the case here. I don't know what the best approach to deal with information warfare (as Russians themselves like to refer to it) would be. — SophistiCat

One thing is to get journalists themselves educated before anybody starts a disinformation campaign. Disinformation is most effective when people cannot see it, when they are totally ignorant about the subject at hand. Just look how confused the Western media was when Russian troops invaded Crimea and simply took off their Russian flags and spread the outrageous lie that these well armed, uniformily clad, young fit soldiers were "Crimean volunteers", not Russian paratroops. (That's actually the lie that Putin did admit being wrong, but hey, he could had been silent to this day about it.)

The best example of this "pre"-education is what the BBC did at the height of the Crimean crisis: it sent one of it's journalist to a potential possible flashpoint, to the city of Narva in Estonia and interviewed people of the sleepy town and made a story about it.

Now why Narva is a strategic flashpoint is because it's a border town (opposite to Ivanogorod in Russia) and the most ethnically Russian city in the European Union. Estonia is part of NATO and has a large Russian minority and it has unfortunately already experienced hostile Russian active measures operations with the 2007 cyberattacks during the Bronze Statue-incident and the kidnapping of an Estonian intelligence officer Eston Kohver in Estonia after Obama visited the country. Hence Narva in Estonia was the perfect place to visit.

So when the British journalist went to interview ordinary ethnic Russian EU-citizens, it could discover what the people actually thought and what the reality was as there wasn't any ongoing information campaign underway. Now if the situation would escalate, that journalist that has already visited the town would understand what could be true and what is invented far better than the journalist that hears the name Narva or Estonia for the first time.

And U.S. (or great power) exceptionalism is not a taboo either, but it remains exceptionalism (and a double standard). In a way that's what makes a state a "great power"; it exempts itself from the rules others are expected to follow, till people are conditioned to accept it as "ordinary". — Πετροκότσυφας

Great powers exist. And even small countries can be very hypocrite and have double standards, because states are utterly selfish in the end. Somehow many have this idea that the US is exceptional in this.

That's crap. The loan was specifically given to a candidate in order to boost his chances of election. — Πετροκότσυφας

No. It was given to the Russian government. Please read more carefully what I say. The loan the International Monetary Fund gave as Russian media now tells it:

granted a US$10.2 billion loan to Russia that enabled the embattled government to throw huge sums at recompensing paying long-owed back wages and pensions to millions of Russians — some overdue wages arrived just before (or indeed on) June 16, polling day.

Or as it was explained by the New York Times in 1996:

The West has few means at its disposal to influence the Russian electorate, especially since too blatant an endorsement of Mr. Yeltsin could backfire with nationalists. But the West does have money to encourage market reforms here and is willing to use it.

At $10.2 billion, the fund's loan is $1.2 billion more than had been discussed just a month ago. Significantly, more than $4 billion of the loan is to be provided during the first year. That is especially important because Mr. Yeltsin has signed a number of decrees to increase social spending in the run-up to the presidential election. On Feb. 15, in announcing his intention to seek re-election, Mr. Yeltsin also promised to pay $2.8 billion in back wages, addressing a compelling emotional issue in a country where many laborers, scientists and teachers have not been paid for months.

Still, the loan will not be provided on the basis of trust. There are steps the Russians must take in order to keep the money flowing. Before the first installment can be disbursed, Mr. Camdessus must present his recommendation to the I.M.F.'s executive board, which is expected to give formal approval for the loan by mid-April.

In the meantime, Western officials said, Russia must demonstrate its commitment to economic reform by phasing out tariffs on the export of natural gas and by beginning to eliminate tariffs on the export of oil. All export tariffs on oil are to end by July 1.

Which of course has nothing to do with Yeltsin's "accomplishments" and USA's involvement. — Πετροκότσυφας

Nothing? Are you saying that Yeltsin had nothing to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union being so peaceful?

(NY Times, AUG. 25, 1991) President Boris N. Yeltsin of the Russian federated republic said today that his republic formally recognized the independence of Estonia and Latvia and urged President Mikhail S. Gorbachev of the Soviet Union and the rest of the world to do the same.

Mr. Yeltsin issued decrees recognizing the two republics. Lithuania, which declared its independence in March, has already been recognized by Russia as a sovereign state.

There's a reason why Putin's media critisizes harshly Yeltsin nowdays. It isn't suprising coming from the country lead by a leader who thinks that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the “greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the twentieth century" and " would reverse the collapse of the Soviet Union if he had a chance to alter modern Russian history".

War? Are you fucking nuts? — SophistiCat

Actually I agree with you. But does the phrase "Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead" mean anything to you? Consider it. And Hitler pushed and pushed and pushed. When he had got all that pushing could get, then he invaded. No, there's no easy solution - or no one has found it, yet - which leaves the not-so-easy solutions. I'm in favour of easy solutions; I am not in favour of no solutions.