Hehe, there are two parts of me clashing with this idea. A cognitive dissonance if you will.

One part says: "There is no authority on happiness."
Another: "Then why ain't I already happy as can be?"

It seems to me that people don't want to be happy. This is seen in saying like, "people live lives of quiet desperation".

As much as I bitch and whine about my depression, I ought to still feel happy. I have nothing really causing me distress like loans debt, and such. — Wallows

Consult Aristotle on happiness. What you're referencing (I think) is experiencing pleasure, satisfying desires, and being comfortable. These are irreconcilable with happiness, though most folks think so. It's a question of thinking through just what happiness is.

If you suffer from depression (as I have), it will have a cause. Try actually listening to those professionals who you admit know more than you do, you might learn enough about yourself to take on the problem. Simply trying in your ignorance to be your own doctor is doomed to failure..

No. Nor do I want to be unhappy. Desiring happiness leads to unhappiness all too often. A controlling nature is, by default, often dovetailed to misery (and probably bipolar). Not that this is the only cause of depression or always true...just an observation.

It seems to me that people don't want to be happy. — Wallows

This is a simple misunderstanding. One wants what one does not have; when i have run out of toilet paper, I want some, and put it on the shopping list. Likewise one wants to be happy iff one is unhappy. People eating ice cream do not wish they had ice cream, and happy people do not want.

It seems to me that people don't want to be happy — Wallows

This suggests happiness in being unhappy.

I say that we want to be content, not happy. Happiness always flees, Contentedness can remain.

Likewise one wants to be happy iff one is unhappy. — unenlightened

This suggests happiness in being unhappy. — Hanover

Well, unenlightened-san spelled it out for me and you, it seems.

It's a question of thinking through just what happiness is. — tim wood

Well, like I said, there's no authority on being happy here in the West. So, I see that as the primary issue worth discussing here.

Right. Did I mention Aristotle? Why was I so foolish? Of course nothing he said is worth even thinking about! Veh ist mir! No one can help me. No one will help me!

As much as I bitch and whine about my depression, I ought to still feel happy. I have nothing really causing me distress like loans debt, and such. — Wallows

That is the complex thing about depression, sometimes it does not require an external stimuli to trigger depressed moods. This is why in certain instances we look at the chemical imbalance in the person.

But, it seems that my question is ill-phrased. People do things that they think will make them happy. And here is the problem. Many people are unwilling to change their habits or hand over their rudder to someone else until the problem is too large that medicine has to intervene. — Wallows

This is true, and we can take Facebook for example in this situation. Very often people document their lives on social media to demonstrate to others that they are, "living their best life." One article I read coined the term "false Happiness Dilemma." Very often people use social media to mask the torment they're currently enduring in their life. Very often people use social media or any other internet outlet that requires social interaction to either mitigate or mask their internal problems and very often serious cases end up leading to suicide all because as you've said, they allowed the problems to get so big to where it doesn't get addressed to the point where one takes their own life.

Read:https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/people-are-revealing-truth-behind-their-happy-looking-social-media-posts-its-heartbreaking.html

I go to doctors to get better; but, fail to listen to them and order medicine online and try and be my own doctor. I don't think this is exclusive to me, as other people can be more headstrong or stubborn to seek help. — Wallows

That is the key there. What is preventing you from listening? Remember therapists are not gods, they are not endowed with supernatural powers that can give you mental renewal. Therapists are echo chambers where they provide an ear, and an objective mind outside of your own. The bold resonates with me because this is the quality of one who self-medicates. I'll admit I've done that when my mother died and even so when my dad died and its a wonder how I endured school. However, self-medication leads down to a rabbit hole that if you're not careful, can lead into an abyss where there are no walls to grapple, or ropes to hang on to. But yes, even us professionals who "ought to know better" we too, suffer from mental distress, because our profession has nothing to do with the fact that we are under skin deep, human.

So, how do you solve this problem of what I believe is most succinctly outlined as individualism clashing with authority? — Wallows

The goal to happiness requires unique roads that weave differently for us, and therefore in order to navigate through that path it is a journey we must figure out within us. If clinicians had the blueprint there would be no need for therapists.

Of course nothing he said is worth even thinking about! Veh ist mir! No one can help me. No one will help me! — tim wood

Haha. I interpret your post in good spirits.

The goal to happiness requires unique roads that weave differently for us, and therefore in order to navigate through that path it is a journey we must figure out within us. If clinicians had the blueprint there would be no need for therapists. — Anaxagoras

So, (truth) or "happiness" is a pathless land. How, do you even relay this profound and shaking message (originally from Krishnamurti) to a struggling individual?

Get happy, Wallows, or else.

Get happy, Wallows, or else. — Bitter Crank

I am consuming some water, is that enough?

Is it making you happy?

Is it making you happy? — Bitter Crank

Not really; but, beats dying from dehydration. Well, I just love drinking water. Wallow wallow.

I'm not sure one can make one's self be happy. (I'm not saying one can not.) It might be like grace -- unearned, undeserved, "unmakable". Many people are happy even though their lives have been at least somewhat unpleasant. And, conversely, some people are unhappy who have little reason to be miserable (apparent to an outside observer).

I didn't used to be happy, I'm happy now. Did I achieve or engineer this state of happiness? No. It happened. Is it permanent? Probably not.

So, (truth) or "happiness" is a pathless land. — Wallows

No it is not pathless, and I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying it is a path that you must travel. None of us can say for certain what makes this or that person happy. these are things you must navigate and find yourself.

How, do you even relay this profound and shaking message (originally from Krishnamurti) to a struggling individual? — Wallows

I've never told an individual the road to happiness is pathless which is why I said:

The goal to happiness requires unique roads that weave differently for us, and therefore in order to navigate through that path it is a journey we must figure out within us. — Anaxagoras

I said the above in response to:

So, how do you solve this problem of what I believe is most succinctly outlined as individualism clashing with authority? — Wallows

So, in other words I'm saying nobody online can solve an individual's problem finding happiness because our own happiness we seek is unique which means that there is no universal blueprint we can offer because our own distress is unique to us. This is why I said the winding road is unique to us which we must travel.

Sorry, I just took your response and kind of distorted it, my bad. No worries, I still think that happiness is a pathless land, just, as you say, is a highly individualistic goal.

A lot of thorny issues have come out of our short exchange. Do you think it should be therapy first, and then if that doesn't help seek medication. Or the route most traveled, as in medication first, and then therapy?

As much as I bitch and whine about my depression, I ought to still feel happy. I have nothing really causing me distress like loans debt, and such. — Wallows

To be fair, there are plenty of things to be distressed about that are found universally in every human life because they are structurally inherent to human life.

Things like loan debts, insurance fees, disease diagnoses, etc are empirical phenomena that may or may not occur. But the situation in which these empirical phenomena are continually threatening to manifest should not be ignored. That it is possible for bad things to occur (even if they are not currently present), is nevertheless a bad thing.

But the situation in which these empirical phenomena are continually threatening to manifest should not be ignored. — darthbarracuda

No, not ignored. To borrow from Stoicism, they are things over which we have no control over, and thus should not be distressed about, at least until they arise. One can or ought to practice negative visualization and realize that they are part of life. What you're doing is presenting a negative visualization and overgeneralizing about their fatalistic impact on one's life. That's a cognitive distortion if I'm to borrow the term from Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

I still think that happiness is a pathless land, just, as you say, is a highly individualistic goal. — Wallows

Happiness is the goal, the path is individualistic. Whenever you have a goal it is not pathless.

Do you think it should be therapy first, and then if that doesn't help seek medication. Or the route most traveled, as in medication first, and then therapy? — Wallows

Whenever medication is involved a lot of factors come into play, and as I've said before I refrain from making online assessments. However, as a general rule seeking out therapy and just simply discussing the mental anguish that you deal with is a starter. A therapist can make the assessment for themselves if they decide to introduce medication in addition to psychotherapy. Unfortunately, for situations like bi-polar disorder medication in addition to behavioral treatment may be in order, to supplant the existing imbalance. It depends on a case by case assessment of the individual.

To be fair, there are plenty of things to be distressed about that are found universally in every human life because they are structurally inherent to human life. — darthbarracuda

There's a bit in Zen and the Art, where he talks about the mechanic attaining peace of mind when the bike is in good running order. One might say that to be entirely happy when the world is in crisis, likewise to be content with a second rate philosophy, is to be out of step with one's life. A good therapist's happiness is the client making progress; a good philosopher's happiness is a confusion resolved.

Adults keep saying we owe it to the young people, to give them hope,” Thunberg said, “But I don’t want your hope. I don’t want you to be hopeful. I want you to panic. I want you to feel the fear I feel every day. I want you to act. I want you to act as you would in a crisis. I want you to act as if the house is on fire, because it is. — Greta Thunberg

Don't be happy! When times are desperate it is madness to be happy, and sanity to be desperate. Therefore be desperate. But do not be 'quietly desperate', because to be quietly desperate is to pretend to happiness instead of acting to achieve it. Fix the goddam bike, and let happiness sort itself out!

I am about as happy and content as anyone I know.

Right. Did I mention Aristotle? — tim wood

Right, like I need Aristotle to give me a lecture on happiness.

Get happy, Wallows, or else. — Bitter Crank

:rofl:

Threaten him into being happy. I love it.

Cheer up, or I'll kick your bloody teeth in. You don't want me and Bitter Crank turning up at your door with baseball bats, do you, @Wallows?

:rofl:

Threaten him into being happy. I love it.

Cheer up, or I'll kick your bloody teeth in. You don't want me and Bitter Crank turning up at your door with baseball bats, do you, Wallows? — S

Have a bit of that ultra-violence, eh? What are they putting in your milk these days?