What's your definition of "fact?" — YuZhonglu

I already told you what a fact is, and I've given examples. I don't really care if you want to use the word differently. It seems that other respondents don't care much either.

You're clicking the dots on someone else's post. You have to click your own.

A better (more specific) definition would be:

"facts are perspectives generated by the brain that the brain happens to be really really certain about."

Thanks.

What would make that better?

No one asked what the definitions of the two classes were. The claim is that one class is empty.
— Isaac

Except that it isn't. If it wasn't a fact that you submitted that comment, then it would be impossible for me to reply to it. But I'm replying to it now, so it's a fact that you submitted it. — S

This seems like a comprehensive demonstration to me.

If you (YuZhonglu) are simply going to define everything as an opinion - which you can do, there being no law against it - may we suppose you live in accordance with your insistence that there are no facts?

It avoids airy statements like "the world happens to be from some reference point."

You're misquoting me, but there's nothing "airy" about that. The same thing will be different from different reference points, so it's worth specifying that.

Most facts have nothing at all to do with brains or people.

I don't define "fact" like the way a lot of other people do. As I see it, a "fact" is just a strongly held opinion that a person's brain [edit] is really certain about.

i disagree. If there are no brains, then there will also be no facts.

Anytime :smile:

So the world wasn't in various states prior to the appearance of brains?

I happen to believe that the Earth existed before the appearance of "human brains."

However, this 'fact'- the claim that the Earth existed, etc. etc.- cannot exist without a brain to think it.

However, this 'fact'- the claim that the Earth existed, etc. etc.- cannot exist without a brain to think it. — YuZhonglu

I'm not calling claims facts.

I'm calling states of affairs facts.

Define as you like, but how do you collect a debt from someone who argues that his indebtedness to you is just your opinion?

What do you mean by "state of affairs?"

By appealing to approximate consensus. There is a societal consensus that I can sue him in a court of law. And if I win, then society will order officers to collect that debt for me.

For example, there's a state of affairs re the position of a particular hydrogen atom in Jupiter's atmosphere relative to a particular other hydrogen atom, at time Tx, from reference point Rp. That state of affairs is the sort of thing I'm calling a fact. Sentient beings and their brains need not apply. We're irrelevant to that fact obtaining.

Yes, but the claim that this state of affairs exists cannot exist without a human brain.

Yes, but the claim that this state of affairs exists cannot exist without a human brain. — YuZhonglu

Again, I'm not talking about claims.

But all facts are claims.

I guess I'm not making my point clear:

As I see it, a "fact" is the product of a neurological process. Consequently, if there's no "brain" then there are also no "facts."

No. I'm not using the term "fact" that way. And the way I'm using the term is standard in a lot of contexts, including philosophical and scientific contexts.

Does that mean your debtor actually owes you? How are you sure that he does? How do you elevate your belief above the status of opinion?

Through my lawyers. If I can convince the right people that I'm right, then they will enforce my will.

I don't define "fact" like the way a lot of other people do. As I see it, a "fact" is just a strongly held opinion that a person's brain [edit] is really certain about. — YuZhonglu

Good for you. I don't define "horse" like a lot of other people do. I define "horse" as sliced bread browned on both sides by exposure to radiant heat, such as a grill or fire.

I had cheese on horse earlier. I might make some more. Would anybody else like some cheese on horse?

So what is your definition of "fact?" .

How do you know you have lawyers or a will? Opinion, all opinion, yes? Your definition is vicious; it devours and destroys even the sense you're trying to make.

Yes, all opinions. But not all opinions are created equal. Some opinions are more useful than others.

So what is your definition of "fact?" — YuZhonglu

You already asked that and I already answered it. The answer was: "Facts are states of affairs, ways that the world happens to be (at a given moment, from a particular reference point)."