• leo
    882
    The demarcation problem is the problem of characterizing the difference between science and non-science, of finding criteria that can say whether a given idea or theory or practice is scientific or not.

    It is a problem because no accepted solution has been found: everytime someone comes up with criteria, either these criteria classify as scientific some ideas/theories/practices that are widely considered as unscientific, or they classify as unscientific some that are widely considered as scientific.

    The consequence is that an idea/theory/practice is not considered unscientific because there are objective criteria that show that it is unscientific, but because some authority or majority have decided to label it as such, based on their own subjective desires. And then it becomes that appending the label "unscientific" to an idea/theory/practice is a way to discredit it arbitrarily, not by comparing it to objective criteria but to one's personal motivations.

    This is an aspect of science that has far-reaching implications and yet I don't ever see it mentioned in discussions that involve science on this forum, so I feel it is important to point it out.


    Some people use the demarcation criterion that a scientific theory is a theory that can be verified through repeated observation by many different people, which they use to label as "unscientific" the theory that God exists, which in fact is already problematic because many people have claimed to have felt God repeatedly. But the bigger problem is that this criterion classifies as unscientific pretty much all theories that are considered scientific, for the simple reason that even if a theory has agreed with observations N times, there is no way to prove that it will agree the next time, there is no way to verify it.

    Based on this realization, some people have come up with the criterion that a scientific theory is a theory that can be falsified, that is there is a way to compare the theory with observations and so to check whether the theory agrees with observations or not. If an observation disagrees with the theory, then the theory is falsified. If no observation can disagree with the theory, then the theory is not scientific. They then use this criterion to label as "unscientific" the theory that God exists (as one example among many others), because it seems that no observation can disagree with that theory. But the problem, again, is that pretty much all theories that are considered scientific cannot be falsified, because if there is an observation that disagrees with the theory, there is a way to save the theory by assuming that there was a phenomenon that wasn't accounted for that is responsible for the disagreement (such as dark matter, dark energy, an unseen planet, a new particle, something invisible, ...), or by assuming that the measuring instruments that were used didn't work properly.


    So as it turns out, a theory is not verified or falsified based on objective criteria, it is said to be verified or falsified when an authority or majority agree to call it verified or falsified. In other words, it is not objective criteria that decide whether a theory is accepted or discarded, it is the personal motivations of some authority or some majority.

    The implication is that theories are abandoned, discarded, rejected, not because there was no way to make them work, not because it couldn't have been fruitful to consider them seriously or to explore them further, but because some authority or majority have decided to abandon them, discard them, reject them. And then it appears clearly that science is not the objective questioning of nature devoid of conventions and politics that most imagine it to be, it is a social enterprise. The observations that are made and the theories that are accepted are framed in a way that they suit the motivations and beliefs of some influential individuals or groups.

    And this is even more exacerbated when we consider that the theories and lines of research that are explored and worked on are those for which scientists receive funding, and the research that gets funded is decided by the individuals or groups who provide the funding and the influential individuals or groups who advise them.

    And then there is no basis to dismiss a theory because it has been labeled as unscientific, nor because it was abandoned or rejected by the mainstream, nor because it isn't explored by the mainstream, that theory could potentially be fruitful and lead to great discoveries. And an objective questioning of nature would allow these theories to flourish, rather than ridiculing them and their proponents and those who want to work on them, which is more reminiscent of the practices of a dogmatic and oppressive community than that of a community driven by the sole desire to understand.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    The consequence is that an idea/theory/practice is not considered unscientific because there are objective criteria that show that it is unscientific, but because some authority or majority have decided to label it as such, based on their own subjective desires.leo

    The whole idea that there can be objective criteria is way off base. Any criteria are going to be subjective. It's simply a matter of whether there's some consensus about it or not. And there is a consensus about what's scientific or not, even though the consensus is a bit fuzzy around the edges/something that a robot might have some problems with. Also, obviously one does not have to care about the consensus, though it is true that the consensus has some socio-psychological impact that's more difficult to avoid.
  • Harry Hindu
    5.1k
    Some people use the demarcation criterion that a scientific theory is a theory that can be verified through repeated observation by many different people, which they use to label as "unscientific" the theory that God exists, which in fact is already problematic because many people have claimed to have felt God repeatedly. But the bigger problem is that this criterion classifies as unscientific pretty much all theories that are considered scientific, for the simple reason that even if a theory has agreed with observations N times, there is no way to prove that it will agree the next time, there is no way to verify it.leo
    What do these people mean when they say that have "felt God". One doesn't feel, or otherwise observe, God directly, like one observes how other organisms behave in their environment, or rockets blasting off and landing on the Moon. We can all (believers and non believers alike) observe these things and verify that the theories about them are valid or not.

    Referring to God would be more like theorizing the existence of atoms or the Big Bang. We dont observe those things, we use them to explain what we do observe, and it has to be logically consistent and coherent. God has yet to be defined in any consistent way, like atoms have. Each person that claims to have felt God may not agree on what God entails except that it can be felt, but how is that useful? How can that be tested?
  • leo
    882
    The whole idea that there can be objective criteria is way off base. Any criteria are going to be subjective.Terrapin Station

    If science was an objective enterprise, in the sense that a theory is accepted because it matches objective observations and not because it suits the desires or beliefs of some people, then we should be able to characterize that enterprise objectively. In saying that we can't characterize it objectively, you are agreeing that the objectivity of science is a myth.

    It's simply a matter of whether there's some consensus about it or not. And there is a consensus about what's scientific or notTerrapin Station

    A consensus between a majority of individuals in the community of people who call themselves scientists, who use their desires and beliefs to classify a theory as scientific or not, and use that label to justify whether it is worthy of consideration.

    Also, obviously one does not have to care about the consensus, though it is true that the consensus has some socio-psychological impact that's more difficult to avoid.Terrapin Station

    It is hard not to care about it considering the status that science has gained. Those who want to explore or accept theories that go against this consensus are ridiculed and ostracized, not just by scientists who follow this consensus but by all the people who believe in science (and who fail to see it as a belief by the way which makes them even more aggressive as they believe they are defending objective truth). The label "unscientific" is not neutral, it has come to have very negative connotations, so it is problematic that a community gets to have such an oppressive influence on what others want to think or believe or research by simply labeling it as unscientific, or by saying that the scientific consensus has abandoned or rejected it.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Let's solve one thing at a time:

    If science was an objective enterprise, in the sense that a theory is accepted because it matches objective observations and not because it suits the desires or beliefs of some people, then we should be able to characterize that enterprise objectively. In saying that we can't characterize it objectively, you are agreeing that the objectivity of science is a myth.leo

    We're talking about the supposed objectivity of calling/considering one set of activities "science" and another set of activities "pseudo-science" (or whatever else we'd like to call it), right?
  • leo
    882
    What do these people mean when they say that have "felt God". One doesn't feel, or otherwise observe, God directly, like one observes how other organisms behave in their environment, or rockets blasting off and landing on the Moon. We can all (believers and non believers alike) observe these things and verify that the theories about are valid or not.

    Referring to God would be more like theorizing the existence of atoms or the Big Bang. We dont observe those things, we use them to explain what we do observe, and it has to be logically consistent and coherent. God has yet to be defined in any consistent way, like atoms have. Each person that claims to have felt God may not agree on what God entails except that it can be felt, but how is that useful? How can that be tested?
    Harry Hindu

    I gave the example of God but what I said applies to any idea/theory/practice that is labeled as unscientific, or that is abandoned/rejected/ignored by the scientific community.

    That being said, the people who have "felt God" know what they mean, and those who haven't don't really see what they mean. In a similar way that people who have "seen rockets blasting off and landing on the Moon" know what they mean, while those who have always been blind don't really see what they mean, they have never observed rockets or the Moon directly and they cannot observe them, they can just try to get an idea based on what other people tell them.

    Those who have never "felt God" can say that those who have felt it were hallucinating, or that they felt something out of the ordinary and arbitrarily chose to interpret it as God, but so can blind people who have never seen a rocket or the Moon say that those who have seen them were hallucinating, or that they saw something out of the ordinary and chose to interpret it as this wild idea that there is a world far far far way that can't be accessed by walking or swimming but only through a magic vehicle that leaves Earth.

    However those who have felt God can communicate with each other about it, and attempt to find out if they felt the same thing and what made them convinced that it was God, and maybe attempt to find out how that experience came about so as to devise ways to experience it again.
  • leo
    882
    We're talking about the supposed objectivity of calling/considering one set of activities "science" and another set of activities "pseudo-science" (or whatever else we'd like to call it), right?Terrapin Station

    Indeed. So if it is subjective to call one set of activities "science" and not some other one, how could we arrive at the idea that the activities called "science" follow objective principles and are devoid of subjectivity?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Indeed. So if it is subjective to call one set of activities "science" and not some other one, how could we arrive at the idea that the activities called "science" follow objective principles and are devoid of subjectivity?leo

    First, in the spirit of solving one thing at a time, does this mean that you agree that it wouldn't be possible to come up with objective demarcation criteria?
  • leo
    882
    First, in the spirit of solving one thing at a time, does this mean that you agree that it wouldn't be possible to come up with objective demarcation criteria?Terrapin Station

    I don't see how it would be possible, although I would have a hard time proving it is impossible, but up to now all attempts have failed, so the way things are now activities are labeled unscientific based on subjective criteria.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    Thanks. So re this "how could we arrive at the idea that the activities called 'science' follow objective principles and are devoid of subjectivity," first, I'd avoid saying objective principles per se (unless you are intentionally trying to focus just on principles as such), and just point out that science is typically concerned with objective events. What we're going to call something and why we're going to call it that are not objective events.
  • ernestm
    1k
    I don't see how it would be possible, although I would have a hard time proving it is impossible,leo

    If you regard science as a method, rather than some collection of facts, then there isn't really a way to define a limit to its application.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    The demarcation criteria (or criterion) idea is one basically of defining the method against other things we could be doing.

    The issue is that attempts to make the description too exact wind up excluding things that are conventionally considered science. While trying to make it too fuzzy (but concretely stated, so that a robot could follow it, say), winds up including things that are conventionally not considered science.

    Of course, we can just ask, "Why do we need a definition that a robot could follow?" And I don't think there's a good answer to that.
  • leo
    882
    If you regard science as a method, rather than some collection of facts, then there isn't really a way to define a limit to its application.ernestm

    The issue is there is no such objective method that defines science. If you define scientific activities as those that follow some objective method (the "scientific method"), there are activities carried out by scientists in their work that don't follow that method, and there are activities that are not considered scientific that follow that method.
  • ernestm
    1k
    true, and to follow convention, that does define a demarcation between 'hard science' and 'soft science.'
  • leo
    882
    The issue is that attempts to make the description too exact wind up excluding things that are conventionally considered science. While trying to make it too fuzzy (but concretely stated, so that a robot could follow it, say), wind up including things that are conventionally not considered science.Terrapin Station

    I would say it is worse than that, see the examples I gave with using "verifiability" or "falsifiability" as a criterion. It is not that they exclude a few scientific theories while including most of them, it is that they exclude almost all of them.

    science is typically concerned with objective events. What we're going to call something and why we're going to call it that are not objective events.Terrapin Station

    Here you are implicitly outlining a demarcation criterion, "science is typically concerned with objective events", but there are plenty of theories concerned with objective events that are deemed unscientific, and plenty of theories involving subjective events that are deemed scientific.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    and plenty of theories involving subjective events that are deemed scientific.leo

    Hence "typically."

    For the first part, it's not a demarcation criterion, just a property that science typically has.

    I didn't think you were asking for a demarcation criterion by the way. You seemed to be asking a strange question about the relation between definitions and "how we can say to be focusing on objective things" in any arena.
  • leo
    882
    true, and to follow convention, that does define a demarcation between 'hard science' and 'soft science.'ernestm

    That's not the case though, physics is considered a hard science, and yet what I said applies there too, physicists carry activities in their work that don't follow an objective method. If you describe an objective scientific method that physicists supposedly always follow through their work, I can point out instances where they don't.
  • leo
    882


    I'm not sure what point you are trying to make though, it feels like we're going off on a tangent and away from the point of this thread.

    The point is basically that what counts as science is not defined objectively but through a consensus, and scientific consensus on whether a theory is worth considering is not based on objective criteria but on the subjective motivations and beliefs of influential individuals/groups, which leads theories to be abandoned/rejected/ignored while it would be potentially fruitful to explore them further, and one barrier to doing that is that the scientific consensus and their followers attack/ridicule/ostracize those who want to explore/believe theories that do not follow the consensus.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    The point is basically that what counts as science is not defined objectively but through a consensus, and scientific consensus on whether a theory is worth considering is not based on objective criteria but on the subjective motivations and beliefs of influential individuals/groups, which leads theories to be abandoned/rejected/ignored while it would be potentially fruitful to explore them further, and one barrier to doing that is that the scientific consensus and their followers attack/ridicule/ostracize those who want to explore/believe theories that do not follow the consensus.leo

    Sure. That all seems pretty obvious, I'd say.
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