• _db
    3.6k
    I've been thinking about the concept of suicide recently. I am not suicidal myself, although I have had tendencies in the past which I use now as first-hand evidence.

    A suicidal person typically is said to be suffering from a "psychache", or a kind of psychological, inner turmoil that dominates phenomenological life, acting as a burden to the person. Edwin Shneidman coined the term and theorized that it is caused by an unfulfilled or distorted psychological need that varies by person. Energy usually used to pursue other, more natural, tendencies is now being stretched to its limit to compensate for a lack elsewhere. It's unnatural and doesn't usually solve the issue. Unfortunately, this results in stress and a degrade of overall health.

    Suicidal thoughts are often in the form of "escapism", or "redemption". The horrors of life are compared to a blissful, relaxing, and calm "afterlife" of "nothingness". We can see this kind of thinking going on when people voluntarily walk into the ocean, never to return. It's kind of poetic, walking into the bowels of the sea, laying down on the sand, filling your lungs with water and falling into a deep, peaceful slumber.

    However this cannot actually be what happens. Depending on overall health, fitness and body weight, your lungs will quickly begin to burn as oxygen becomes depleted. Soon after, panic ensues as you fight the need for air. Willpower gives way to instinct as you are forced to inhale. You become tired quickly and are unable to get back to land. Finally you are unable to surface again, and you slowly go into a catatonic state within the next three minutes as you body begins to shut down. Whatever the final moments of your life are like, they likely are not the least bit enjoyable or relaxing. Likely, the only emotion you experience is fear as you realize what is actually happening and face the reality of death.

    Perhaps this is why many people commit suicide in a quicker fashion, whether that be by gunshot, autodefenestration, high-speed impacts, or more peaceful methods, like carbon monoxide poisoning, or drug overdose. Quick suicides seem to be the choice of males, and typically are spur-of-the-moment, like they just want to get it over with already. Drawn-out suicides seem to be choice of females, and typically happen when a person is unable to perform a quicker suicide out of fear.

    I don't think it can be argued that suicide is not a tragic occurrence. The choice to end your own existence typically means that, for whatever reason, your life is not good enough for you; i.e. the universe was incapable of sustaining your needs.

    So that is a rough sketch of suicide. My questions are:

    1.) Is suicide ever rational? and

    2.) Is suicide ever ethical?

    Is suicide ever rational? By rational, I mean in the best-interests of the individual, as most philosophers tend to agree on. But this is ambiguous - what are the best-interests of a person? Surely it can't just be the preferences of a person, or the heroin addict would be acting in their own best-interests. It seem to me that the most basic definition of best-interests would be the maximization of personal good, like pleasure, happiness, eudaimonia.

    But sometimes we don't have an option for pleasure. Sometimes all courses of action result in some degree of bad. You have shitty, bad, really bad, torturous, etc. Any rational person is going to choose the course of action that results in the least bad - the action is good, and the state of affairs that results is comparatively better than the other courses of action.

    However, despite being classified as rational persons, humans are rather irrational. We have so many biases and illogical heuristics, or "habitual thinking patterns". We apply some set of reasoning to a scenario that is not rationally applicable.

    A good example of a bias in action is the Pollyanna principle. This is the psychological phenomenon of forgetting the bad and remembering the good. Survivors of a natural disaster may come together in a church congregation or similar, and cherish the good company and bright future, while forgetting all those who died. An injured veteran from a war may look back and believe it to be all worth it - yet this requires him to forget what it was actually like to lose an arm. To restart one's life, then, would require a systematic deletion of one's memory and wisdom.

    This is also similar to another psychological phenomenon, which is colloquially called "grass-is-always-greener" thinking. A family immigrating from Mexico might celebrate a successful migration - yet the future might look dim and the present not great either. But the transition from a bad state to a better state, even if this state is not good in itself, is enough for people to poorly judge the current state by means of equivocating comparative value with actual value. This is also why we typically find it wrong to rain on someone's parade, or steal their thunder, even if we ourselves think they're somewhat deluded in their celebration. They may be "happy", but only because they've constrained the contents of their thought.

    Both can be seen as coping mechanisms, and they are quite common.

    If we apply these two concepts to suicide, I think what emerges is a strikingly irrational thought process, typically speaking.

    Our actions are almost always driven by some concept of the future. Like Heidegger said, the essence of action is accomplishment. We envision a future in our minds, and we act to see this future instantiated.

    This is where my own personal experiences come into play. When I was contemplating suicide in the past, I would almost always conceive of how great non-existence seemed to be. No stress, no burdens, no deadlines, no concerns, no pain, no boredom, tediousness, shame, or horror. Non-existence seemed calm and peaceful, like an infinitely long relaxing vacation.

    To be more precise, I characterized non-existence as similar to the feeling you have when falling asleep. The deep, engulfing comfort as you slowly dissolve.

    I have had to counsel a few friends as well who were struggling with suicidal thoughts in the past, and who characterized non-existence in similar ways, so I'm not alone with this conception and I suspect it is wide-spread as well.

    But this conception is merely a fiction. Unfortunately, in the case of suicide, there is no future in which a suicidal person exists. They are no more. Gone. No experiences, nothing. No peace, no relaxation, no calm. That is the reality of death, assuming no afterlife of any sorts. It is impossible to conceive without applying intra-worldly values inappropriately.

    Because of this, it seems that "fantasizing" suicides are irrational. Fantasizing about non-existence acts as a means of "escape" and "redemption". It is a combination of the Pollyanna principle and grass-greener thinking: first, fantasizing suicidal people tend to ignore the fallout from their own death (Pollyanna), and they also inherently believe a state in which they don't exist is actually good for them (grass-greener).

    Perhaps some people, myself included, might feel compelled still to believe that someone escaping or preventing their own suffering is good for them. We might believe that it is a good thing that Hank no longer feels his suffering, or a good thing that potential-person Patricia escaped a lifetime of unbearable suffering. But although being intuitive, this reasoning is invalid. It is the result of a misappropriated cognitive heuristic, of applying intra-worldy value to a world without value, and of expecting values to be inherently symmetrical (a lack of bad is always good, a lack of good is always bad,...).

    So fantasizing suicides seem to be irrational. But there are other forms of suicide, albeit more rare. There's the Stoic or Samurai codes that advocate suicide when one cannot live virtuously anymore - a benevolent suicide for the benefit of others. Then there's suicide caused from extreme pain - done without contemplation of a better world-after, but rather out of sheer desperation. You feel horrible pain, and you want it to stop, by any means necessary. The pain is forcing your hand, all-consuming. The future is not what matters, the present is what matters. This, I think, can be compared to what happens when you put your hand on a hot iron. It hurts really bad, and you instinctively pull your hand away without any long, deliberative thinking.

    The aforementioned benevolent suicide is not in the best-interests of the self, but in the best-interests of the community which is conceived to exist after one exits the world. And the desperate suicide is one that does not utilize future states of affairs - rather, it is focused on what is happening at the present, which neglects any potential future states of affairs that may be good.

    Thus, the only rational suicide is the one that is done after careful deliberation of one's future and the conclusion that there is no good state of affairs for the individual, only varying levels of bad. Once goodness is no longer an option, it becomes irrational (though perhaps not unethical) to continue to live. The difference between the desperate suicide, whether instinctual or thought-out, and the fantasizing suicide is in intent - do you intend to stop feeling bad, or do you also intend to feel good afterwards? What is rational may not actually result in us in a good state.

    Because of this, it is unethical to prevent a person from killing themselves if they perceive that their future is not bright and if there is no apparent obvious miscalculation going on. This, of course, is ambiguous - but we have to remember that the reality of death is that of what Epicurus taught, and that although pleasure is good and pain is bad, neither absence of them results in any value. It may be in a person's best-interests to continue to live, but their death is ultimately not a harm nor a benefit to them.

    I understand that this kind of thinking is difficult to come to terms with. We do mourn the death of a teenager who died in a DUI, because they may have had a bright future, and it was taken away. And we feel reassured that someone was euthanized, because they may have had a very dark future. But this is not rational - a good state of affairs need not have an inverse bad to be good, and a bad state of affairs need not have an inverse good to be bad. What is good ought to be cultivated, what is bad ought to be exterminated, not because what results in case of failure or success is bad or good (respectively) but because of the actual value in-itself. If the good cannot be cultivated, then the bad still ought to be exterminated, and not because it leads to a good state of affairs.

    Additionally, there does seem to be unethical suicides. Examples of these are of parents who kill themselves while leaving their children behind to wipe up the mess, or those who are in incredible debt and kill themselves to escape the responsibility of dealing with it. Deal with your shit, then exit if you still feel the need to.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    This is where my own personal experiences come into play. When I was contemplating suicide in the past, I would almost always conceive of how great non-existence seemed to be. No stress, no burdens, no deadlines, no concerns, no pain, no boredom, tediousness, shame, or horror. Non-existence seemed calm and peaceful, like an infinitely long relaxing vacation.darthbarracuda

    I've said before, often it is not the actual suicide but these fantasies about a calmness and escape that go along with the suicide ideation. There are actually two possible things going on psychologically:

    1) The idea that one can take control of the situation
    2) The idea that one is escaping

    For the first part, one can do a thought experiment. Let's say someone is tired of the tedium, pain, suffering of life and they go out and try to throw themselves in front of a train. Right before they decide to do this, ANOTHER person comes along and shoots them and they die before they were able to jump. There is something not quite the same here. There seems almost an injustice. The suicide act itself was trying to be some sort of romantic gesture of rebellion against life's pain. The fact that this ability to control one's fate was taken away, even if the same result occurred, seems to make a difference.

    The second part of escaping is really the ideation of thinking what it would be like to not exist and, as you point out, misapplying intra-worldly experiences where there are none. However, it is simply the idea of escape from this world that this ideation is trying to achieve. It does not actually bring these things.

    This all just strengthens the antinatalist's argument to not even bring someone into the world in the first place.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Not looking to hijack your thread, darthbarracuda, and I'll go back and look at your post in a moment, but this is related and I wanted to post it somewhere just in case the person in question might see it. Someone named "rossi" just signed up a started a thread about depression and suicidal thoughts, and I wrote a long response to him. He deleted his post before I could send my response. That was the only thing he'd posted so far. Anyway, here's what I wrote:

    ==================================================================
    First, are you still getting psychological counseling? And have you told your counselor all of the stuff you've written here? If your answer to either of those questions is "No," you should change that. Keep on with counseling and express all of this stuff during your sessions.

    I believe that views such as "there is no reason to go on living as life has no meaning" and so on are a symptom of suicidal depression, not the cause of it. They're an ad-hoc rationalization of particular chemical states in your brain. They're a way to try to make rational sense out of something you're feeling due to those physical brain states, which are the real cause of those feelings.

    Re "philosophical pessimism," I could list some philosophers and a loose collection of those philosopher's views that are usually lumped in with "philosophical pessimism," but I'd have zero confidence that I could actually give a definition of "philosophical pessimism, and I think that at least some of the views from some of the philosophers in question are simply a reflection of their own clinical depression and/or other psychological problems they had. I don't think that there's much in the way of philosophy about a lot of it.

    I don't believe in anything like objective meaning or purpose or anything like that. I believe that people create their own meaning and purpose--when they're of a disposition to do so; not everyone is--and that's as far as that goes. That's never seemed like a problem to me.

    It might be more of an issue of the realization that there is no objective meaning or purpose is paradigm-shattering for someone (who previously believed that there is objective meaning and/or purpose). But with good mental health--which is identical to good brain health--shifting paradigms there shouldn't be a problem. So make sure that you get help with that aspect. Talking and thinking about things a lot isn't going to change your brain chemistry in the ways in needs to be changed so that you're not suicidal. We need to make a lot more advances in medicine on that end, too, but medicine can do a better job at it than talking and thinking can.
    ==================================================================
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Is suicide ever rational? By rational, I mean in the best-interests of the individual, as most philosophers tend to agree on. But this is ambiguous - what are the best-interests of a person? Surely it can't just be the preferences of a person, or the heroin addict would be acting in their own best-interests. It seem to me that the most basic definition of best-interests would be the maximization of personal good, like pleasure, happiness, eudaimonia.darthbarracuda
    "Best interests" is always about preferences, and preferences are always individual (even when a bunch of individuals have the same preferences). "maximization of personal good, like pleasure, happiness, eudaimonia" is a personal preference.

    So suicide can be rational in that sense.

    Suicide can also be rational in the sense that I use of "rational," which is simply about inferential/implicational reasoning, or in other words, thinking logically.

    More importantly, I don't think that it's very important if it can be rational. I wouldn't say, "Yeah, you should definitely commit suicide just in case it's rational. That's a sufficient justification."

    The way I look at it is that a lot of people would decide rather to not commit suicide, and would be later glad that they didn't go through with a suicide, just in case they could get some help with the issues that are troubling them. I think that fact makes it worth at least trying to get that help for awhile.

    Re whether it's ethical, I don't personally see suicide as an ethical issue, pro or con. I wouldn't say that it's ethical or unethical.

    Re your comment about humans being irrational, well, we're not always rational, but we're typically a complex combination of the rational/irrational and arational. (I'd reserve "irrational" for inferential/implicational-type thinking that's gone off the rails--for example, if someone thinks something like, "If it's raining outside, then I should take an umbrella. Therfore, I'm going to jump in front of this speeding train." Where they see "Therefore I'm going to jump in front of this speeding train" as following the conditional. That's irrational. But a lot of thinking simply has nothing to do with inferences/implications in that way. It's arational rather.)

    Also, I noticed on a thread awhile back, but didn't have time to comment at the time, and then I lost where it was (some ethics thread), that you responded to something I said with a comment about emotions being either only irrational or arational (I forgot which term you used). I don't agree with that. Emotions work via the same complex mixture that our other thinking and reacting does, so that rationality is part of it at times, too. Aside from that, though, the context was that I had noted that once we have some functionally foundational ethical stance, which is matter of "feeling" on my view a la "yaying," "booing," preferences, etc., re interpersonal behavior that one considers more significant than etiquette, we can reason to subsequent stances. ("Yay helping people" for example, to "This old lady needs help crossing the street, so I should help her.") You hadn't noted the nuances of that, where the reasoning isn't emotional but the ethical judgment part is,. Also, the "feelings" referred to for emotional stances aren't the same thing as emotions in the anger, happiness, melancholy, etc. sense. They're unique ethical feelings.
  • Barry Etheridge
    349
    Re whether it's ethical, I don't personally see suicide as an ethical issue, pro or con. I wouldn't say that it's ethical or unethical.Terrapin Station

    I find that very strange position which is really only tenable if the act of suicide literally affects nobody which I would venture to suggest is never the case. The suicide of someone we know, even at a distance, is one of the most devastating psychological traumas possible. Add to that the burden on those responsible for finding the body, breaking the news, tying up the many loose ends (suicides rarely set their affairs in order beforehand), and it is simply impossible to see suicide as anything other than the most supremely selfish act possible, indiscriminately targeting others for incalculable injury. It's almost an act of terrorism all the worse for the fact that the perpetrator cannot ever be made to account for it. If that's not an ethical issue then I don't know what is!

    Worse still is the fact that, contrary to popular understandings, many, if not most, suicides are not the last step in an agonised battle at all but are committed almost on a whim. The old psychiatric jest that the trouble with anti-depressants is that they give the patient enough revived energy to kill themselves still holds good. "”I am leaving because I am bored.”, wrote George Sanders in his suicide note. Nobody has better captured the casual thoughtlessness which many suicides represent.

    It is this potential for negligent injury to others which informs the attempts to make suicide illegal (despite the obvious problems in actually prosecuting a case) and explains why religions tend to see it as amongst the greatest (potentially unforgivable) sins. I'm really not sure that you can sidestep the ethical dimension simply by declaring that you don't recognise it as a matter of ethics when so many clearly do.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Well, for one, I don't consider any strictly "psychological harm" unethical and I especially wouldn't make any laws regarding it. (Which reminds me that that is a good example for someone in another forum who wanted an example of ethical stances I hold that are unusual.)

    I definitely don't consider it unethical to act selfishly.

    And just for contex, I've been close to a number of people who have committed suicide--at least 5 or 6 (the one was unclear re whether it was suicide, and "at least" because there's some ambiguity for some others as well, but those were more cases of destructive behavior etc.) In any event, 5 people I've been very close to have clearly committed suicide.
  • Barry Etheridge
    349


    I guess that makes you literally the exception that proves the rule then! Your position would appear to suggest that you don't disapprove of psychiatrists who have been guilty of implanting false memories in their patients, torturers who employ sensory deprivation, or brainwashers which I think most people would find more than just unusual, definitely objectionable, and quite probably sociopathic.

    5 people I've been very close to have clearly committed suicide.Terrapin Station

    Were I the kind of cruel individual you appear to not mind being confused with I might suggest that they're trying to tell you something! Still think that would be not unethical?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Well, first off, I don't buy the idea of brainwashing, period. I'd also say that I don't buy the idea of hypnosis period, though it depends on just how one is defining it. I could buy that some very limited senses of it are possible, especially with a willing subject. "False memories," where they're strictly "implanted" by psychiatrists, is an extremely dubious idea. With brainwashing, I've never encountered a definition of it that I didn't think amounted to hogwash.

    Re torturers, you don't need to focus on psychological aspects. The mere fact that someone is being held against their will is a sufficient issue that I ethically object to, would make illegal, etc. Any significant "physical," nonconsensual acts beyond mere false imprisonment would be a problem, too.

    Still think that would be not unethical?Barry Etheridge

    What are you asking about--you saying something? No. I do not think that any speech is unethical. I'm a free speech absolutist. I'm not offended by any speech, etc. I'm fine with you saying whatever you like, calling me whatever names you like, etc. I prefer that you honestly express yourself. (If you were asking about something else, though with "still think that would be not unethical" you'd have to explain what you had in mind.)
  • wuliheron
    440
    Japan had an epidemic of suicides when their economy fell in the toilet with mostly young men who had no hope of finding work killing themselves in a particular forest out of shame. Similarly, the Dutch have a high rate of suicides who tend to leave nasty notes blaming their boss, evidently, the legacy of Calvinism. Notably, it is money that is doing the driving in both cases, money that encourages women to wear high heals the closer you get to a major urban center, money that is the central issue. People who earn less than $34,000.oo a year, close to the poverty line, are fifty percent more likely to commit suicide, while those earning over roughly $75,000.oo are not likely to become any happier. Those earning significantly less than their neighbors are more likely to commit suicide as well.

    Is it rational? Is it ethical? These days many people diagnosed with terminal cancer are choosing to commit suicide in order to leave their wealth to their children, thus, helping to keep their children alive.
  • zookeeper
    73
    I find that very strange position which is really only tenable if the act of suicide literally affects nobody which I would venture to suggest is never the case. The suicide of someone we know, even at a distance, is one of the most devastating psychological traumas possible. Add to that the burden on those responsible for finding the body, breaking the news, tying up the many loose ends (suicides rarely set their affairs in order beforehand), and it is simply impossible to see suicide as anything other than the most supremely selfish act possible, indiscriminately targeting others for incalculable injury.Barry Etheridge

    Where (and why) do you draw the line when it comes to shielding others from psychological pain?

    If, say, your parents were devastated by their unshakable belief that you're going to suffer eternally in the fires of hell because of your lack of correct religious belief, would it be selfish and cruel of you to not lie to them about your religious beliefs to alleviate their psychological pain?

    If someone is truly utterly offended at your choice of clothing (which you find entirely appropriate) and insists that it causes them genuine distress, will you cater to them and stop wearing it?

    If you're in tremendous pain with a terminal medical condition and would rather opt for euthanasia or assisted suicide but one of your friends or family pleads you not to because if would be traumatizing for them, will you suck it up and linger in agony for a month or two more as to not incalculably injure that person?

    Obviously I'm not expecting an answer to each question, those are just examples to illustrate that people can suffer psychological damage from all sorts of things, and in some cases it's simply because they're stupid. Since you're arguing against suicide on the grounds that it causes psychological damage to those left behind, then naturally you're saying that that's an acceptable or reasonable thing to be damaged by (as opposed to someone's clothing, for example, which I'm sure you'll agree would be stupid), but what exactly is the criteria for that? The intensity of their suffering, how difficult it would be for them to alter their thinking to avoid it, something else?
  • _db
    3.6k
    There seems almost an injustice. The suicide act itself was trying to be some sort of romantic gesture of rebellion against life's pain. The fact that this ability to control one's fate was taken away, even if the same result occurred, seems to make a difference.schopenhauer1

    Excellent thought experiment, I agree.
  • BC
    13.6k
    Clarice and I knew each other for 40 odd years; we met at work. Clarice was a lively but not especially happy person. She was an Angry Woman. She was a nurse. Angry People, men or women, may have a sharp sense of social justice, but it is also the case that we Angry People are quite often also 'just plain screwed up', to use the technical term and to speak for myself.

    In middle age Clarice's physical health went steadily down hill; obesity, arthritis, skin cancer, and so on, as did her mental health. Eventually she became unable to walk (only very short distances) and care for herself properly. Finally she developed an abominable cancer and decided she would not seek treatment for it.

    Her reasoning on this was clear enough: Life had become unbearable; she didn't have any acceptable means of suicide by a swifter method. It was too late for her to jump off a bridge or out of a window (she couldn't manage it). She was collecting pills but a visiting nurse confiscated them (whether what she had would have worked, don't know). She was aware of other methods but found them repellant.

    Her chosen method allowed her to involve others in her suffering. It allowed her ample time to contemplate her imminent passing (for 2 years, it turned out). There wasn't any sweet resolution at the end. Her final words to some gathered friends were more likely sarcasm than affirmation.

    I think Clarice's decision was as rational as it could be, given her history. Had she been able to resolve her core grievances, she might have rationally chosen otherwise, but she wasn't able to do that. (She did try very seriously, but wasn't successful.)

    If chronic suffering justifies a suicide, acute short-term suffering certainly does not. Teenagers do not, can not, have good, rational reasons for killing, or attempting to kill, themselves. The acute embarrassment of economic failure in one's middle years isn't rational justification either. I can understand the pain of loss-of-status, but it just doesn't merit killing one's self.

    The single rational reason, from my point of view, is reaching an unresolvable dead end of misery after one has lived much of one's expected life. Still, many people endure through such ending episodes with grace, so it isn't at all inevitable.
  • BC
    13.6k
    If you are contemplating pesticide, it would be best to bot use aggressively otto-correcting softcore to write your finial massage to the wold. Where once the correcting software consented itself with pointing out possibly misspilled verbs, it now just goes ahead and substitutes what it thought you must have meat.

    For beat results I recommence you use a peace of paper sand a pencil.
  • Barry Etheridge
    349


    I think you're a jump ahead of me here. I wasn't necessarily arguing for or against suicide per se. I was challenging the view that it was not an ethical issue at all. As with any law or ethical code identifying it as a sin/crime does not actually stop anybody doing it nor does it necessarily preclude that so doing can be justified. Just as it is wrong to drive on the wrong side of the road but a reasonable defence can be mounted for it if you're thus avoiding falling down a sink hole or piling into the back of an accident on the right side so there may be circumstances in which suicide can be seen to be defensible. The special problem for suicide, however, is that there is no possibility of facing the suicide with the full consequences of their actions nor of hearing their defence. It does seem to me therefore that no matter how explicable a suicide may be it is always unjust on those left behind.

    AS to where the line should be drawn on psychological damage being tortious or otherwise that's really a matter for a judge or jury or ethics committee. I wouldn't pretend for a second that there is a fixed line or that if there were I would have any idea where it might be located though there are certain instances which I would consider indisputably unethical as in the examples I gave. It is certainly right that in UK and US courts it remains possible to sue for compensation for emotional distress.
  • BC
    13.6k
    Obviously I'm not expecting an answer to each question, those are just examples to illustrate that people can suffer psychological damage from all sorts of things,zookeeper

    Right.

    Whether a deeply beloved partner who is terminally ill dies on April 25 or June 2nd isn't going to make a huge difference in the amount of pain the survivor experiences. If the same partner opts for assisted suicide of one sort or another in late March or early April, it might increase or decrease the pain of the survivor. Not much difference, especially compared to the beloved partner not being sick and dying in the first place. The survivor's suffering begins with the unexpected terminal diagnosis: "3 months, maybe 6--not longer than that."

    Chronic mental illness which can go on for decades and never ends in suicide is extremely painful for the partner and family--chronically distressing, more than acutely painful.

    Friends moving away to distant cities to pursue their worthy goals can be a cause of considerable pain. Getting fired can be devastating (or a relief, depending). Being part of a company bankruptcy layoff, even if it is nothing personal, can be very hard on people.

    Many decisions that people make for their own good, for the good of this group and not that group, to comply with the law, and so on and so forth produce waves of unintended but certain suffering -- and nothing can be done about it -- "that's just life!" as they say.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    As with any law or ethical code identifying it as a sin/crime does not actually stop anybody doing it nor does it necessarily preclude that so doing can be justified.Barry Etheridge
    I'm actually fine with laws against it, ceteris paribus re the current status quo, as the utility of those laws is that it makes it easier for folks to get help even if they can't afford it.
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