I don't think that all transgendered people fall prey to the trappings of traditional gender roles. — thewonder

This is way outside my experience, but it seems to me that biological men who feel as if they're women and who want to live as women in their societies would see living in accordance with society's gender roles as a benchmark to show that they are truly women. I can't imagine that many would see the world through the eyes of Gender Nihilism. Living in accordance with gender roles would be one of their primary goals, wishes, dreams. Am I wrong about that?

This is way outside my experience, but it seems to me that biological men who feel as if they're women and who want to live as women in their societies would see living in accordance with society's gender roles as a benchmark to show that they are truly women. I can't imagine that many would see the world through the eyes of Gender Nihilism. Living in accordance with gender roles would be one of their primary goals, wishes, dreams. Am I wrong about that? — T Clark

No, you're not.

What does “gender fluid” even mean?

What does “gender fluid” even mean? — Noah Te Stroete

That one's actually pretty easy to figure out, even without the aid of Google. It means something along the lines that you don't identify as a single, set gender over time, but are flexible or "fluid" enough to identify with whatever seems right in the moment or to not identify at all.

That one's actually pretty easy to figure out, even without the aid of Google. It means something along the lines that you don't identify as a single, set gender over time, but are flexible or "fluid" enough to identify with whatever seems right in the moment or to not identify at all. — S

That was my intuition as well. It’s weird, I think, but who am I to judge? I suppose one could live one’s life this way, but I think it just invites bullying, and who would want that? Not that they deserve bullying but that’s not something that one would expect a Cro-Magnon type to understand and accept. Why go through the trouble?

This is way outside my experience, but it seems to me that biological men who feel as if they're women and who want to live as women in their societies would see living in accordance with society's gender roles as a benchmark to show that they are truly women — T Clark

I have yet to hear or read an explanation by anyone that maps out the metaphysics of transgenderism.
What is a "true woman"?
What does it mean to "feel" like one?
What about you can be "in the wrong body"?

I have yet to hear or read an explanation by anyone that maps out the metaphysics of transgenderism.
What is a "true woman"?
What does it mean to "feel" like one?
What about you can be "in the wrong body"? — Artemis

Simple - if a man were to tell me he feels like a woman, considers himself one, and would like to be treated like one, I would respond "ok." What more do we need to know.

That was my intuition as well. It’s weird, I think, but who am I to judge? I suppose one could live one’s life this way, but I think it just invites bullying, and who would want that? Not that they deserve bullying but that’s not something that one would expect a Cro-Magnon type to understand and accept. Why go through the trouble? — Noah Te Stroete

Depends how important it is to the person. If it was that important to me, why would I let the fear of being bullied repress me? For comparison, I didn't come out publicly with my true sexual identity whilst in school for that very reason, but I haven't let homophobes or other judgemental types silence me or keep me in pretence for quite some time now - although I am typically quite private about my sexuality and rarely bring it up. There are still plenty of homophobes and judgemental types around.

Depends how important it is to the person. If it was that important to me, why would I let the fear of being bullied repress me? For comparison, I didn't come out publicly with my true sexual identity whilst in school for that very reason, but I haven't let homophobes or other judgemental types silence me or keep me in pretence for quite some time now, and there are still plenty of homophobes and judgemental types around. — S

Good on you. I don’t let a fear of bullying about my mental disorder stop me from being open about it, so I can relate on some level.

I have yet to hear or read an explanation by anyone that maps out the metaphysics of transgenderism.
What is a "true woman"?
What does it mean to "feel" like one?
What about you can be "in the wrong body"? — Artemis

It relates to what we were just talking about in terms of masculine and feminine. I don't literally believe the part about being in the wrong body, but other than that, I don't see why the rest of it should be so hard for you to understand. Just go watch a few videos about transgender females by transgender females themselves on YouTube, or better yet, meet some in person. I've done both. And I think it has little to do with metaphysics. It has more to do with psychology and social science.

I will use they in colloquial speech and "he or she" or "ey" before I simply use "he" and you are who will have to get used to that (In so far that I am posting here, I guess.).


I had thought that "he or she" had caught on more by now.

you will have to get used to that (In so far that I am posting here, I guess.). — thewonder

There are effective means available to thwart your peculiar pronoun proclivities.

"Computer: commence thwarting @thewonder until further notice."

"Greetings, master. I will comply."

Well, her (eir?), declaration seems to be against that there are roles at all. I assume that most queer people want to create new gender roles. I'm sure that relationship that transgendered people have to their chosen sex is somewhat tenuous. I wouldn't think that the experience should just be negative, though. You get to sort of reinvent the wheel. Gender Nihilism seems to be like other Nihilist texts in that it seems to adopt a somewhat fatalistic pessimism. I think that such Nihilist notions are somewhat pathological. The critique is there, and they glean a lot of things about the world, but the worldview is just too bleak for my tastes. I feel like things don't go well for Nihilists because they have such a gloomy outlook. But yeah, from her perspective, it seems like she is kind of bothered by that by becoming a woman she has picked all of the baggage of being female. I would suggest that she should try to see what was originally liberating in her general way of going about and doing things, but I doubt that she would care for my psychologisms.

I'm not a transgendered person, and, so, I can't really tell you too much about it. I don't know that they could tell you too much about it either to be honest. I bet that they're all a bit torn as to how it is that they want to go about living as the other sex.

How does your imaginary computer at all thwart me, Bitter Crank?

Well, her (eir?), declaration seems to be against that there are roles at all. — thewonder

Well, no matter what she declares, there are and likely always be gender roles. Men have penises that they put in women's vaginas. The man ejaculates into the woman's vagina and the sperm enters the woman's uterus where it ....Well, let's leave it at that. If you need more detail, I'm sure @Bitter Crank or @s can do a better job explaining it than I can.

I assume that most queer people want to create new gender roles. — thewonder

If by "queer" you mean "homosexual," this is not true at all in my experience. Perhaps others with more can shed light on this.

I'm sure that relationship that transgendered people have to their chosen sex is somewhat tenuous. I — thewonder

That also seems very unlikely to me. I have little specific knowledge and I'm interested in what more informed people will tell us.

all of the baggage of being female — thewonder

That, along with all the other baggage women carry and all the baggage men carry, is known as "life." That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't try to make it more humane, but in the mean time, the solution is to suck it up. Which is kind of a masculine thing to say.

I'm not going to explain that being queer is not the same thing as being a homosexual again.

Here are the begining paragraphs to the Wikipedia article:

Queer is an umbrella term for sexual and gender minorities who are not heterosexual or are not cisgender. Originally meaning "strange" or "peculiar", queer came to be used pejoratively against those with same-sex desires or relationships in the late 19th century. Beginning in the late 1980s, queer activists, such as the members of Queer Nation, began to reclaim the word as a deliberately provocative and politically radical alternative to the more assimilationist branches of the LGBT community.[1][2]

In the 2000s and on, queer became increasingly used to describe a broad spectrum of non-normative[note 1] (i.e. anti-heteronormative and anti-homonormative) sexual and gender identities and politics.[3] Academic disciplines such as queer theory and queer studies share a general opposition to binarism, normativity, and a perceived lack of intersectionality, some of them only tangentially connected to the LGBT movement. Queer arts, queer cultural groups, and queer political groups are examples of modern expressions of queer identities.

Critics of the use of the term include members of the LGBT community who associate the term more with its colloquial, derogatory usage,[4] those who wish to dissociate themselves from queer radicalism,[5] and those who see it as amorphous and trendy.[6] The expansion of queer to include queer heterosexuality has been criticized by those who argue that the term can only be reclaimed by those it has been used to oppress.[7]

I'm not going to explain that being queer is not the same thing as being a homosexual again. — thewonder

So, given that definition, I'll restate the comment I was referring to:

People who reject current gender roles want to create new gender roles.

Seems more like they want there to be no gender roles which, as I said, ain't going to happen until eggs are fertilized in vitro and placed in artificial uteruses and then raised by non-gendered robots. It might be easiest if we get rid of all the men and fertilize the women's eggs using modified cells from other women.

Isn't that the real beef - it's heterosexual men who are the problem. Let's bad mouth them until we can come up with a final technological solution.

In a nutshell, I suppose. It's not a terribly homogeneous field, and, so, whatever anyone says Queer Theory is just sort of true. They don't want for there to be roles. It's late and I'm not sure as to what it was that I was trying to get at there. It's like a reinvention of a way of life. You would identify as a woman and want to be regarded as such, but not necessarily to live out the role of a woman in a negative sense. You would want to create a new way of life as a woman.

I'm not going to explain that being queer is not the same thing as being a homosexual again. — thewonder

Stop lying. It's getting on my nerves. It still has that meaning, with a derogatory use, as can be verified by online dictionaries. From my own experience, I can tell you that it has had that meaning at least since my childhood in the early 90's, when I first heard it being used in that way, and also much earlier than that according to the Wikipedia article which you yourself quoted. I only found out about the more recent usage you refer to much later in life. Just because you clearly favour the later interpretation, that doesn't mean that other interpretations cease to count. That is just your own personal belief. Once again, I feel it necessary to point out that you are not the sole arbiter of what a word does or doesn't mean.

Simple - if a man were to tell me he feels like a woman, considers himself one, and would like to be treated like one, I would respond "ok." What more do we need to know. — T Clark

I would agree with treating anyone how they like to be treated. I'm not sure why that entails believing them about their self-id. There are countless examples of self-id that we do not and should not take at face value, so there have to be other criteria to believe it.

I don't literally believe the part about being in the wrong body, but other than that, I don't see why the rest of it should be so hard for you to understand. Just go watch a few videos about transgender females by transgender females themselves on YouTube, or better yet, meet some in person. I've done both. And I think it has little to do with metaphysics. It has more to do with psychology and social science. — S

I agree it's boils down to psychology and social science in essence. But then you still have many (not all, it's not a uniform group in their thinking) transgenders insisting that they "really are" a woman/man. And that is a metaphysical claim, which they have (to my knowledge) never fully explained.

If you have an resources that do explain it, I'd appreciate it if you provided them here instead of just waving nebulously into the wilds of the interwebs. :wink:

Oh, and I have met many transgender and gender fluid people. The latter tend to make more sensible claims, in my opinion. But apparently it's not good form to ask them to explain transgenderism. It's considered "questioning their existence." Which is unphilosophical, but, hey, that's what fora like this one are for.

I agree it's boils down to psychology and social science in essence. But then you still have many (not all, it's not a uniform group in their thinking) transgenders insisting that they "really are" a woman/man. And that is a metaphysical claim, which they have (to my knowledge) never fully explained. — Artemis

Those claims can be categorised along with many religious, supernatural, and conspiracy theory claims. They can be filed away in the "special cabinet", i.e. the dustbin.

If you have any resources that do explain it, I'd appreciate it if you provided them here instead of just waving nebulously into the wilds of the interwebs. :wink:

Oh, and I have met many transgender and gender fluid people. The latter tend to make more sensible claims, in my opinion. But apparently it's not good form to ask them to explain transgenderism. It's considered "questioning their existence." Which is unphilosophical, but, hey, that's what fora like this one are for. — Artemis

Nope, no resources which explain what can't be truly explained in that way. That wouldn't be an explanation, it would be a story.

Interesting experience. I've experienced the opposite. I've been told that they'd rather people just ask them directly instead of staring and being awkward around them, although I think I can also recall one of my transgender friends saying that it can get annoying, which is understandable. I've met both male to female, and female to male. I also know someone who might now identify as gender neutral after the transformation didn't exactly work out so well, and I know someone who doesn't identify as transgender, but rather as an occasional cross dresser.

Those claims can be categorised along with many religious, supernatural, and conspiracy theory claims. They can be filed away in the "special cabinet", i.e. the dustbin. — S

That's my intuition as well.

I've been told that they'd rather people just ask them directly instead of staring and being awkward around them, — S

I can imagine that would be weird :snicker:
I don't think philosophical differences should be a reason to stare or be awkward. Anything beyond the theoretical aspects is just none of my business.

You would identify as a woman and want to be regarded as such, but not necessarily to live out the role of a woman in a negative sense. You would want to create a new way of life as a woman. — thewonder

That seems very unlikely to me. Intuitively I would think that a transgender woman would want very much to fit in with societal gender roles. That would sort of be the whole point. Again, I'm talking about something where I don't have much experience.

I would agree with treating anyone how they like to be treated. I'm not sure why that entails believing them about their self-id. — Artemis

I agree with you at least to this extent - I think the whole transgender thing can be really dangerous to vulnerable young people. I met a girl - she was 16 at the time - who wanted to be treated as a boy. She was obsessed with manga and a specific male character. She also was extremely depressed - lost. She had serious psychological problems which her mother treated using Reiki and aromatherapy.

Well, okay, but I think that the Wikipedia article is fine.

It sems like we both would be. I'm not sure that there is much to be gained through speculation. I would assume that most transgendered people wouldn't accept the traditional role of women, though.

Simple - if a man were to tell me he feels like a woman, considers himself one, and would like to be treated like one, I would respond "ok." What more do we need to know — T Clark

I would agree with treating anyone how they like to be treated. I'm not sure why that entails believing them about their self-id. There are countless examples of self-id that we do not and should not take at face value, so there have to be other criteria to believe it. — Artemis

Back in the early '80s I lived in a building with a guy who believed he was Jesus returned to usher in the Kingdom of Heaven. He was a well-educated, urbane, gay, New Englander in his 30s and was a productive individual. "Jesus" was a great conversational partner. Really interesting on many levels.

Did I think he was Jesus of Nazareth? No. I thought he was either very deluded or enjoyed faking a delusion. I lost track of him back then when I moved, but lo these many years later, it doesn't seem like the Kingdom of Heaven has been inaugurated.

I've known transsexuals, some of them fairly well. Did I think that they were actually a man/woman in the wrong body? No. Did they seem to benefit from taking testosterone or estrogen, and undergoing plastic surgery? Yes. Does that convince me that they were not deluded? No.

Would I be polite to these delusional people? Of course.

But what is the root of this delusion? Not quite sure, but probably deep dissatisfactions. "The times they live in" have made it possible to reach farther out for what they imagine will be more satisfying ways of being in the world. in 1300 a.d. France or in 1845 Virginia, the solution to profound and deep dissatisfactions were structured along different lines than in 1930, 1960, or 1990...

Take Bitter Crank. Here is a guy who has nursed certain delusions about possible better worlds that are possible because of the times he lives in. Imagining that he is living out these delusions has at times been quite comforting. At other times it has generated a lot of internal and external static. He persists in these delusions, nonetheless, even those there is little evidence that his delusional aspirations are possible/probable/feasible etc. I blame the original Jesus for inspiring these delusions in the first place.

I've known transsexuals, some of them fairly well. Did I think that they were actually a man/woman in the wrong body? No. Did they seem to benefit from taking testosterone or estrogen, and undergoing plastic surgery? Yes. Does that convince me that they were not deluded? No. — Bitter Crank

I don't think anything you're saying is in conflict with the things I wrote. It's not that I think transgender people are or are not really men or really women, it's that I have no reason not to accept their statement at face value. Except, as I said, sometimes I do - as in the case of the vulnerable 16 year old girl.

There is no doubt in the world that your experience in this area is much greater than mine. I take your opinion seriously.

Oh, and I have met many transgender and gender fluid people. The latter tend to make more sensible claims, in my opinion. But apparently it's not good form to ask them to explain transgenderism. It's considered "questioning their existence." Which is unphilosophical, but, hey, that's what fora like this one are for. — Artemis

The "gender-fluid" people I've met strike me as fairly confused and irrational about sex, bodies, roles, and so forth. Their confusions are aided and abetted by the times they live in.

I have long felt that bisexuals and trans people were inappropriately included in what was first the "Gay and Lesbian Liberation movement". "Bisexuals" just don't seem like they ever developed an identity as such. Trans-gendered people are not homosexuals, presumably. Then there are the "queers" who are some sort of limp dick nouvelle cuisine. So we now have the GLBTQ movement.

There is a specific political reasons for grafting bisexuals (a '3' on the Kinsey Scale), transgendered, and 'queers' onto the movement, such as it is: Numbers. The conventional politics of gay liberation has required respectable numbers, with "10%" being the desired [and delusional] portion of the population belonging to the gay movement. As Mike McCarthy famously said, "If 10% of men are gay, who is getting my share?"

Partisan politicians get away with the 10% figure because it sufficiently nebulous to disprove. So, 10% it is. (The percentage of people in the US who identify and perform as gays and lesbians is probably below 4%. Transgendered persons constitute less than 1/2 of 1% (based on surveys).

I take your opinion seriously. — T Clark

And I return this respect for the depth of your experience and opinions.

If by "queer" you mean "homosexual," this is not true at all in my experience. Perhaps others with more can shed light on this. — T Clark

In the last 50 years, all the homosexual men I have met were interested in having pretty conventional sex (adjusted for male anatomy) OR were interested in having sex with somebody else. I don't know... human anatomy doesn't really allow for much variation in sexual mechanics. There are shafts, orifices, hands, and brains.

Partisan politicians get away with the 10% figure because it sufficiently nebulous to disprove. So, 10% it is. (The percentage of people in the US who identify and perform as gays and lesbians is probably below 4%. Transgendered persons constitute less than 1/2 of 1% (based on surveys). — Bitter Crank

My daughter's intimate personal relationships are with women. I found this out about seven years ago when she was 31. I know she had relationships with men when she was younger. I know she didn't wait till she was 31 to tell my wife and me because she was afraid of our reaction. She knew we wouldn't care and she wouldn't let herself care if we did.

Of course I don't think of her as gay. She's my daughter. I call her gay when the subject comes up because I don't want people to think I'm ashamed or avoiding the subject. She has told me that she doesn't self-identify as gay. I know she's not ashamed of it and isn't afraid to face other people's reactions.

So, where does she fit into the picture?