Incidentally, speaking of changing rooms - what does one do if a man wants to take his young daughter, or a woman her young son, to the swimming bath? — unenlightened

In my local pool they have recently installed more cubicles for changing. The showers are still open. I took my daughter in with me until she was old enough to change on her own. Still remember many times when I'd have to send in a female attendant to tell to stop messing about and get a move on.

This is a genuine social dilemma I have faced with my daughter — unenlightened

It just came naturally. Just like being naked in front of your child stopped after a time. I think my child chose the time. It seemed organic

because many women feel threatened and uncomfortable when men are are around when they are undressing — Malcolm Parry

And I’m sure trans women who have surgically transitioned feel the same.

And I’m sure trans women who have surgically transitioned feel the same. — Michael

That is a consequence of a choice they made. I'm not sure what the authorities could do to accommodate them.

I'm not sure what the authorities could do to accommodate them. — Malcolm Parry

Let them use the women’s changing room. They shouldn’t be required to use the men’s changing room.

Whether that's a viable option seems to depend heavily on whether or not a person passes for the other sex.

This is probably the elephant in the room that is rarely talked about, because it's obviously an unfortunate thing to have to tell someone that they are unable to pass for the opposite sex, but it's the reality for many.

Whether that's a viable option seems to depend heavily on whether or not a person passes for the other sex.

This is probably the elephant in the room that is rarely talked about, because it's obviously an unfortunate thing to have to tell someone that they are unable to pass for the opposite sex, but it's the reality for many. — Tzeentch

The specific case I had in mind were those who have had bottom surgery.

It seems bizarre to say that trans men with an artificial penis ought use the women’s changing room and trans women with artificial breasts and an artificial vagina ought use the men’s changing room.

There's a popular subreddit called r/transpassing. People put their pictures up and ask for advice about how well they're passing, and what they mean by this is that they want strangers to think they're biological women (or biological men.) The notion that gender is a construct is true. That fact doesn't have much to do with what's actually going on.

Let them use the women’s changing room. They shouldn’t be required to use the men’s changing room. — Michael

Why should women have to give up their hard fought for rights to men?

Why should women have to give up their hard fought for rights to men? — Malcolm Parry

They’re not.

This is probably the elephant in the room that is rarely talked about, because it's obviously an unfortunate thing to have to tell someone that they are unable to pass for the opposite sex, but it's the reality for many. — Tzeentch

It isn’t unfortunate. It is fact.

If they pass, then yes, that would be bizarre. But what do you do with someone who has had surgery and doesn't pass?

There doesn't seem to be a satisfactory solution for it, other than a seperate set of changing rooms, etc.

The notion that gender is a construct is true. — frank

Unfortunately for trans people, it is just as much constructed by themselves as it is by society at large, and those views seem to constantly conflict each other.

Unfortunately for trans people, it is just as much constructed by themselves as it is by society at large, and those views seem to constantly conflict each other. — Tzeentch

And that's another reason transitioning should only be for mature adults. A fair number of detransitioned youths say they thought they could actually change to the opposite sex. They learned through experience post-transition, that you can't actually do that.

And that's another reason transitioning should only be for mature adults. A fair number of detransitioned youths say they thought they could actually change to the opposite sex. They learned through experience post-transition, that you can't actually do that. — frank

This is where there is some difficulty. On the one hand, children are likely too young to make such drastic medical decisions, but on the other hand transitioning before puberty is likely easier and has more satisfactory results than transitioning after puberty.

I suppose we have to determine whether or not the rate of regret is sufficiently high to warrant erring on the side of caution.

And that's another reason transitioning should only be for mature adults. — frank

:up:

A prepubescent child cannot make a decision like this, because they have no frame of reference for what the list of nightmarish potential consequences even means, thus there cannot be informed consent.

On some level I get the dilemma, but as far as I'm concerned there's only one sane answer to it, and it isn't particularly hard to see.

, but as far as I'm concerned there's only one sane answer to it isn't particularly hard to see. — Tzeentch

That sane answer eludes quite a few.

That’s true about all children’s medical issues, and is why doctors, parents, and (when relevant) psychiatrists are also involved in the decision making.

As a related example is when the decision is made on how best to treat someone born intersex. Sometime this requires surgery to “make” them a boy or a girl.

What about an alternative, non-invasive treatment - teaching a child to accept the healthy, natural body they have been born with?

What about an alternative, non-invasive treatment - teaching a child to accept the healthy, natural body they have been born with? — Tzeentch

That’s usually where it starts. But it’s naive to presuppose that all cases of gender dysphoria and the like can be treated merely by psychotherapy and non-hormonal medication. It’s when this fails that other approaches are necessary.

Gender dysphoria is an actual psychological condition, where patterns have to be established over a long period of time by a psychotherapist. It is very rare, but it exists.

In that case, as with hermaphrodites, I am sooner inclined to say something is demonstrably wrong that would warrant the making of such a decision on behalf of the child.

However, stories abound of kids who decide on a whim they want to be of the opposite sex, and manage to receive hormone therapies and whatnot without ever seeing a psychologist or even without their parents consent.

However, stories abound of kids who decide on a whim they want to be of the opposite sex, and manage to receive hormone therapies and whatnot without ever seeing a psychologist or even without their parents consent. — Tzeentch

Sure, but that’s a reason to better regulate the treatment; it’s not a reason to dismiss the treatment as an option entirely.

I suppose we have to determine whether or not the rate of regret is sufficiently high to warrant erring on the side of caution. — Michael

We now know that gender dysphoria can be transient. This quote is from Dr David Bell, the psychiatrist who worked with trans kids and eventually was instrumental in reforming the NHS approach youth transition:

It is vital to distinguish between gender dysphoria and transgender . The former refers to childhood disturbance in relation to the sexed body, the latter is an umbrella term and is easily used to foreclose exploration

Gender dysphoria is most commonly transient, as evidenced by the high proportion who desist, its socially contagious nature in teenage girl peer groups, and by the testimony of large numbers of detransitioners. Its common comorbidities suggest that it is probably one contemporary means of expressing adolescent distress, alongside depression, anxiety, self-harm and eating disorders, among young people with histories of childhood trauma and those on the autistic spectrum. For these children, a therapeutic approach which is neutral and exploratory is essential, locating their gender dysphoria in the context of their personal histories, and recognising that it may be a temporary expression of their wider distress . — Dr. David Bell

here

There are other reasons people detransition. In general, anyone with mental health issues should spend a lot of time in therapy before transitioning. For some, transitioning is basically running away from their problems.

Well, I don't know who is arguing for the entire dismissal of the treatment.

Hermaphrodism and gender dysphoria are rare conditions. These are obviously not the target of the discussion.

Hermaphrodism and gender dysphoria are rare conditions. These are obviously not the target of the discussion. — Tzeentch

Often used to justify everything else.

It just came naturally. Just like being naked in front of your child stopped after a time. I think my child chose the time. It seemed organic — Malcolm Parry

I agree; it seemed natural and organic. But if you think about it, there is not much natural or organic about it. Such things do not occur in nature, and are not universal in human societies either.

I think Dr Bell is right in almost every particular. I wouldn't call it "transient" though. In my experience women are body shamed by society and by advertising in particular and the prevalence of cosmetic surgery and the weight loss industry suggests it is spreading to men too rather than diminishing. Many remain body shamed all their lives.

Anyone remember this? My mother, worked in a bank, but was forced to leave on getting married - company policy. Blatantly unfair dismissal today, but open standard practice back then.

I agree; it seemed natural and organic. But if you think about it, there is not much natural or organic about it. Such things do not occur in nature, and are not universal in human societies either. — unenlightened

We are social animals and take millions of unconscious cues every day. No one learns the etiquette of buying rounds at a bar but everyone in UK knows it.

— Michael

The issues become much clearer and easier to settle in one’s mind when one abandons the concept of gender entirely, or at least relegate it to a grammatical concept, a relic of language, rather than a statement about biology. It ends the cognitive dissonance required to support and think about these ideas clearly. — NOS4A2

Or just disperse with the notion that women should wear dresses and men should wear pants. If we did that then wearing a dress or pants would not be a form of gender expression. Many women wear pants already and still consider themselves women, so what exactly are trans-people saying when they wear a dress and high heels and claim that is a form of gender expression? Men wear earrings and have long hair and do not consider themselves women.

With this in mind, trans-genderism would actually be a man or woman doing what is expected of the other sex while maintaining that they are still the sex they were born as. A man wearing a dress and still considers himself a man would be a trans-gendered person. A man wearing a dress and believes that now makes him a woman has a delusional disorder.

I don’t think bathrooms should be divided by gender. I think bathrooms should be unisex. — Michael

Which is to say that bathrooms should be genderless. I can get behind this as this is a solution that does not affirm one's delusions that one is a man or woman when they are not.

A society where people that do not wear clothes would be genderless as well.

A society where both sexes where earrings and have long hair is one wear wearing earrings and having long hair would not be a means of affirming one's sex/gender.

Call it whatever you like. A random stranger in the same room isn’t going to be able to tell the difference between a natural and an artificial set of genitals.

A trans man who has had bottom surgery ought use the men’s changing room and a trans woman who has had bottom surgery ought use the women’s changing room.

Their chromosomes and the genitals they were born with are irrelevant. — Michael

What would one's bottom have to do with where you can change clothes? Whose the one concerned about genitalia now?

What type of bottom one has is relevant in medical and mating contexts. That is when others need to know what type of bottom one has.

Try reading it again. You’ll see that the word “psychological” was listed. — Michael

And invoking the term, "psychological" just reinforces my assertion that we are dealing with a delusional disorder. You are ignoring all the problems I posed by defining gender as a social construct. You continue to be intellectually dishonest. I have responded to each and every point you have made in your posts yet you cannot show the same respect.

I have also been asking which feelings one has that makes one a man or woman. You can't even explain what it means to be a man or woman for yourself. What feelings are you referring to when you assert you are one or the other? How am I suppose to understand what you mean when you won't explain what you mean?

How can one's feelings be gender and a social construct be gender when a trans-person's feelings is at odds with the social construct?

No I wasn’t. Many words have ambiguous meanings. Many words have multiple meanings. I’m not the one asking for some singular definition of “male gender”, just as I’m not the one claiming that there’s some singular definition of “male sex”. Language and biology and psychology and society and culture are not that simple. The world is a complex place, and is precisely why any essentialist approach to the issue is doomed to fail. — Michael

For a word to have ambiguous meanings means that it has no meaning, and that you end up talking past each other.

A word has multiple meanings only in different contexts. Each meaning of a word is specific to a certain context and the goal you are attempting to accomplish. You don't apply all meanings of the word in one context, or in different context, as that would be a category mistake.

A man wearing a dress and believes that now makes him a woman has a delusional disorder. — Harry Hindu

Your phrasing equivocates. You call the transgender woman a "man", suggesting that by "man" you are referring to biological sex, and so presumably by "woman" you are also referring to biological sex?

But as has been explained many times before, the biological man who identifies as a woman doesn’t identify as having XX chromosomes, ovaries, or a vagina, and so your claim is an obvious misrepresentation.

Given that the transgender woman doesn't identify as a biological woman, what delusion is it you think she has?

What would one's bottom have to do with where you can change clothes? — Harry Hindu

You tell me. Why do we have separate men's and women's changing rooms at all? Surely it has something to do with phenotype? If so, then it stands to reason that any biological man with a female phenotype – even if artificial – ought use the women's changing room and any biological woman with a male phenotype – even if artificial – ought use the men's changing room.

There's certainly no good reason for something like karyotype to be at all relevant.

And invoking the term, "psychological" just reinforces my assertion that we are dealing with a delusional disorder. You are ignoring all the problems I posed by defining gender as a social construct. You continue to be intellectually dishonest. I have responded to each and every point you have made in your posts yet you cannot show the same respect.

I have also been asking which feelings one has that makes one a man or woman. You can't even explain what it means to be a man or woman for yourself. What feelings are you referring to when you assert you are one or the other? How am I suppose to understand what you mean when you won't explain what you mean?

How can one's feelings be gender and a social construct be gender when a trans-person's feelings is at odds with the social construct? — Harry Hindu

There are sex differences in psychology. These differences are what drive the development of gender expression and gender roles in society – expressions and roles which have absolutely nothing to do with karyotype and almost nothing to do with phenotype.

The psychology of most biological males is similar enough that they identify as belonging to the same gender, and the psychology of most biological females is similar enough that they identify as belonging to the same gender. But psychology is complex and a gradient, not straightforward and black and white. Some are gender non-conforming but still identify as (mostly) "belonging" to one gender or the other, some do not identify as "belonging" to either gender – or as "belonging" to both – and some identify as "belonging" to the gender that is most predominantly occupied by the opposite biological sex.

A society where people that do not wear clothes would be genderless as well. — Harry Hindu

It's not just about clothes. But, sure, in some idealised society that has no gender roles and where there is never any kind of separation or difference between biological males and biological females (outside of reproduction and reproductive health), and assuming for the sake of argument that sex differences in psychology are explained entirely by nurture and not by nature, then perhaps transgenderism wouldn't occur (although gender dysphoria might) – but we don't live in such a world.

You seem to be suggesting that anything that is socially or culturally "caused" therefore isn't "real"? That would be a non sequitur.

As has been explained many times before, the biological man who identifies as a woman doesn’t identify as having XX chromosomes, ovaries, or a vagina, so it's not clear what delusion you believe she has. — Michael

The delusion is that there is more to being a woman than having XX Chromosomes, ovaries and vagina, or that having XX Chromosomes, ovaries and vagina does not make one a woman (but then why would they be attempting to get artificial ones?). This is what I have been trying to get you to show for several pages now and you keep avoiding the question. What more is there to being a woman than having XX Chromosomes, ovaries and vagina that isn't some sexist trope? If it is a feeling, then what is the feeling? What does it feel like for you to be a man or woman? You can't even speak for yourself as to what you mean.

If so, then it stands to reason that any biological man with a female phenotype – even if artificial – ought use the women's changing room and any biological woman with a male phenotype – even if artificial – ought use the men's changing room. — Michael

Why are we even talking about sex genitalia in a thread about gender? Again, why should it matter what sex parts one has (and to even call artificial sex parts, "sex parts" is questionable) if gender is a feeling and/or social construct?

There are sex differences in psychology. These differences are what drive the development of gender expression and gender roles in society – expressions and roles which have absolutely nothing to do with karyotype and very little to do with phenotype. — Michael

Still talking about differences in sexes....

If these properties exist in both males and females then how can you say that these mental functions and behaviors are distinctions of sex rather than simply being part of the variety that exists among all humans? Also, are these mental functions and behaviors of each sex consistent across all cultures? If so, we would be talking about something biological, not cultural.

I've come to the same conclusion. Being trans does not change a person into the opposite sex. It's just a person behaving as if they're the opposite sex.