I’m not conflating gender with biology. I am simply pointing out that if we separate bathrooms according on one’s sex organs, as you say we should, then it makes sense to allow those with an artificial penis to use the same bathroom as those with a natural penis and to allow those with an artificial vagina to use the same bathroom as those with a natural vagina. — Michael

Separate bathrooms is not just about sex organs and the place of females in society is not based just on sex organs.

I find the whole dismissive attitude to female experience in society quite sad. Luckily females in modern western liberal countries have it fairly good but there are still threats to females and unique challenges for females that means some areas of society have to be barred from males.

Separate bathrooms is not just about sex organs and the place of females in society is not based just on sex organs. — Malcolm Parry

Harry Hindu is the one who said "we separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts" and so I am simply addressing the implications of this reasoning.

I find the whole dismissive attitude to female experience in society quite sad. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not dismissing it. But you certainly seem to be dismissing transgender experience.

You continue to think that transgender women are psychologically, socially, and culturally equivalent to cisgender men simply because they share the same set of chromosomes, gonads, and genitals. Your view is mistaken.

but there are still threats to females and unique challenges for females — Malcolm Parry

And there are threats to and unique challenges for transgender men and transgender women.

I'm not dismissing it. But you certainly are dismissing transgender experience. — Michael

You are 100% dismissing women and their experience.

You have dismissed the concerns of females in spaces where they are may feel awkward and vulnerable. The toilet is one of those places.

I reject the notion that man can become a woman. I agree with you there.

You have dismissed the concerns of females in spaces where they are may feel awkward and vulnerable. The toilet is one of those places. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not dismissing it.

I reject the notion that man can become a woman. — Malcolm Parry

Again with the equivocation. Nobody is claiming that a biological man can become a biological woman or that a biological woman can become a biological man. What is claimed is that biological men can have a female gender identity, that biological women can have a male gender identity, and that certain social divisions ought be made by gender identity rather than biological sex.

I'm not dismissing it. — Michael

You want males to enter their exclusive places. Is that not dismissing it?

Again with the equivocation. Nobody is claiming that a biological man can become a biological woman or that a biological woman can become a biological man. What is claimed is that biological men can have a female gender identity and that biological women can have a male gender identity. — Michael

I think that is a meaningless concept and dismisses what it is to be female.

You want males to enter their exclusive places. Is that not dismissing it? — Malcolm Parry

I am questioning the claim that certain bathrooms ought be exclusive to biological women.

I think that is a meaningless concept and dismisses what it is to be female. — Malcolm Parry

So you deny the reality that gender is distinct from sex?

I am questioning the claim that certain bathrooms ought be exclusive to biological women. — Michael

Dismissing their concerns and shared experience.

Dismissing their concerns and shared experience. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not dismissing it.

But as it may interest you:

So you deny the reality that gender is distinct from sex? — Michael

I don't believe you (and similar advocates) use the concept of gender correctly. Gender is the societal differences between the sexes. If everyone else in the world thought it was good thing and agreed I would still see a man in dress. once all of the issues women face are ironed out and females don't feel threatened or vulnerable then maybe men would have access to exclusive places.

An example would be a night club that attracts the trans/queer community. If women in those places are comfortable then there would be no issue. Until then men need excluding. These are private places and probably exclude most of the "bloke" element anyway.
Sport is a different matter but there would be nothing wrong in setting up other organised leagues where women accept the risks and disadvantages of playing with men.

Many woman won't have a problem with it. like most things in society it isn't binary.

Many women won't have an issue walking through a park late at night.

Looks like the majority of women disagree with you. Do you dismiss that?

Looks like the majority of women disagree with you. Do you dismiss that? — Malcolm Parry

Disagree with me on what?

Gender is the societal differences between the sexes. — Malcolm Parry

These societal differences are distinct from any biological differences, so clearly gender is distinct from sex. And people can identify as belonging to the gender that is not typical for their biological sex.

Disagree with me on what? — Michael

Allowing men into women's bathrooms.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

Allowing men into women's bathrooms. — Malcolm Parry

When including transwomen who have had gender-affirming surgery, 45% of women say that transwomen should be allowed to use the women's bathroom compared to 34% who say they shouldn't (with 21% saying they don't know). 45 is greater than 34.

So this ties into my claim to Harry Hindu that we ought to at least let trans women who have had bottom surgery use the women's bathroom and trans men who have had bottom surgery use the men's bathroom.

But what's most interesting I think is that men are much less tolerant of transwomen using women's facilities than women are. I don't know if that's because men are in general less tolerant of transgender people or because they're white knighting.

These societal differences are distinct from any biological differences, so clearly gender is distinct from sex. And people can identify as belonging to the gender that is not typical for their biological sex. — Michael

No it isn't. The gender is reflection of the societal differences between the sexes. The word was hijacked by the muddle headed.

When including transwomen who have had gender-affirming surgery, 45% of women say that transwomen ought be allowed to use the women's bathroom compared to 34% who say they shouldn't (with 21% saying they don't know). 45 is greater than 34. — Michael

read the link

The gender is reflection of the societal differences between the sexes. — Malcolm Parry

And these societal differences have nothing to do with biology. Gender is distinct from sex.

read the link — Malcolm Parry

Ah, so public opinion changed between 2022 and 2024. It's interesting that there's such a large swing in just two years. There's even a majority opposition to trans men using the men's bathroom, and again with men being much less tolerant than women. But speaking as a man, I don't care what other men think. Trans men ought be allowed to use the men's bathroom.

The age breakdown is also interesting, with the majority of 18-24 year olds supporting trans people using their preferred bathroom, and every other age group being the opposite. The other biggest determinants are who you voted for (more Lib Dems support it than oppose, whereas more Conservatives oppose it than support) and whether or not you know a trans person.

I wonder how much of the opposition is reminiscent of historical (and even current) homophobia and gay panic.

And these societal differences have nothing to do with biology. Gender is distinct from sex. — Michael

The person's biology has a huge influence on the development someone. Society treats the sexes different and certain aspects of society are governed by a person's sex. There are reasons why it is a societal taboo for men to hit women.
Men growing up will not have the same experiences women. these forge the person you become. The influences are changing on a daily basis but until there has been some massive social engineering the status quo will (and should) remain.

But speaking as a man, I don't care what other men think. Trans men ought be allowed to use the men's bathroom. — Michael

I doubt many men would care.

I doubt many men would care. — Malcolm Parry

And yet the poll you linked to says that 51% of men oppose trans men using the men's toilets (with only 33% in support). So evidently most men do care.

The person's biology has a huge influence on the development someone. — Malcolm Parry

Yes, but there's more to biology, and in particular neurology, than just sex chromosomes and genitals.

Men growing up will not have the same experiences women. — Malcolm Parry

And transgender women growing up will not have the same experiences as cisgender men, and transgender men growing up will not have the same experiences as cisgender women. It's not all about sex chromosomes and genitals. I don't know why you can't accept this. We are not merely biological automatons. We are conscious organisms with complex psychologies and personal identities, with gender identity "develop[ing] surprisingly rapidly in the early childhood years, and in the majority of instances appears to become at least partially irreversible by the age of 3 or 4."

And yet the poll you linked to says that 51% of men oppose trans men using the men's toilets (with only 33% in support). So evidently most men do care. — Michael

That surprises me.

Yes, but there's more to biology, and in particular neurology, than just sex chromosomes and genitals. — Michael

Of course, I've never said otherwise.

And transgender women growing up will not have the same experiences as cisgender men, and transgender men growing up will not have the same experiences as cisgender women. It's not all about sex chromosomes and genitals. I don't know why you can't accept this. — Michael

I can accept it. people can be whoever they wish.

We are conscious organisms with complex psychologies and personal identities, with gender identity "develop[ing] surprisingly rapidly in the early childhood years, and in the majority of instances appears to become at least partially irreversible by the age of 3 or 4." — Michael

I agree with this too. people can identify how they wish. They are still male and female and males and females are seen different by society and this needs recognising in certain spaces.
You are denying this difference and wish to play down the woman's experience in modern society. That's what a man does, many of them would argue.

You are denying this difference and wish to play down the woman's experience in modern society. — Malcolm Parry

I’m not playing down women’s experiences. I’m simply explaining that “women’s experiences” is not reducible to “the experience of humans with an XX karyotype, ovaries, and a vagina.”

Women as a gender is distinct from women as a sex, even if they almost always correspond. The fact that they almost always correspond has caused you to mistakenly conflate the two.

I’m not playing down women’s experiences. I’m simply explaining that “women’s experiences” is not reducible to “the experience of humans with an XX karyotype, ovaries, and a vagina.”

Women as a gender is distinct from women as a sex, even if they almost always correspond. The fact that they almost always correspond has caused you to mistakenly conflate the two. — Michael

No matter how you repeat the same thing over and over doesn't alter the fact that you wish to allow males into female spaces. playing down the concerns females have at males gaining access to to places where females feel vulnerable and uncomfortable in the presence of males.

Luckily, society seems to have caught up and is clamping down.

you wish to allow males into female spaces — Malcolm Parry

I wish to allow transgender women to use the women’s bathroom and transgender men to use the men’s bathroom.

playing down the concerns females have at males gaining access to to places where females feel vulnerable and uncomfortable in the presence of males. — Malcolm Parry

I don’t play it down. I just also acknowledge that trans women feel vulnerable and uncomfortable using the men’s bathroom, that trans men feel vulnerable and uncomfortable using the women’s bathroom, that trans people are at a greater risk of abuse when forced to use the bathroom contrary to their gender identity, and that despite the dog whistle, cisgender women are not put at risk by trans-inclusive bathroom policies.

I don’t play it down. — Michael

cisgender women are not put at risk by trans-inclusive bathroom policies. — Michael

Sounds like you are.

No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, according to a new study from the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law. The study is the first of its kind to rigorously test the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

“Opponents of public accommodations laws that include gender identity protections often claim that the laws leave women and children vulnerable to attack in public restrooms,” said lead author Amira Hasenbush. “But this study provides evidence that these incidents are rare and unrelated to the laws.”

...

“Research has shown that transgender people are frequently denied access, verbally harassed or physically assaulted while trying to use public restrooms,” according to Jody L. Herman, one of the study’s authors and a public policy scholar at the Williams Institute. “This study should provide some assurance that these types of public accommodations laws provide necessary protections for transgender people and maintain safety and privacy for everyone.”

Are you saying women are stupid to feel that they should exclude men from their exclusive places?

Are you saying women are stupid to feel that they should exclude men from their exclusive places? — Malcolm Parry

I’m saying that:

a) cisgender women are not put at risk by trans-inclusive bathroom policies, and

b) trans people are put at risk of abuse when forced to use the bathroom contrary to their gender identity

Are you saying that (a) and/or (b) are false? Or are you saying that you don’t care that they’re true?

Are you saying that (a) and/or (b) are false? Or are you saying that you don’t care that they’re true? — Michael

I'm saying (a) is false but even if it wasn't men should not be allowed in women's exclusive spaces.

Even if (b) is true, men should not be allowed in women's exclusive spaces.

Why should women have to compromise for men?

I'm saying (a) is false — Malcolm Parry

The evidence shows otherwise.

men should not be allowed in women's exclusive spaces — Malcolm Parry

Yet again with the equivocation.

The claim is that no bathroom should be exclusive to a single biological sex. If bathrooms are to be divided then they ought be divided by gender identity. As such, there are “female gender bathrooms” and “male gender bathrooms”, with “female gender bathrooms” exclusive to both cisgender and transgender women and “male gender bathrooms” exclusive to both cisgender and transgender men.

The studies show that this is the safer option for everyone.

The evidence shows otherwise. — Michael

One study by a Gender studies lecturer is not the 10 Commandments.

As I said even if true it doesn't change the narrative.

The studies show that this is the safer option for everyone. — Michael

So women should stand aside as usual.