their existence as a white person was harmful to others — Marchesk

Why do I doubt that this is what was actually said?

It was said, and I was quite irritated by it. Why do you think I made that up? There is almost no position too ridiculous sounding that someone hasn't stated it.

Why do you think I made that up? — Marchesk

I don't think you made it up, but I'm suspicious that although that may have been the message you took away, it was not the one that was intended, or the only (or best) interpretation of whatever literal words the speakers used.

At least I hope so.

At least I hope so. — Pfhorrest

The person said that as a white person — that their existence was harmful to others, and this was a hard realization to deal with, but it was important in order to get rid of those bad things about oneself. I also know that this person is a big proponent of this sort of thing (whiteness being a bad thing).

This was said in the context of several people addressing the white members of the meeting, and the fear over creating an "unsafe" environment. Also, the White Fragility book is being circulated, which may have some insightful things to say about race, but it also does kind of state things in a way that being white is harmful, or at least the review summaries I've read give that impression. But "whiteness" here means a social construction, which is another question this sort of diversity workshop brings up.

their existence as a white person was harmful to others
— Marchesk

Why do I doubt that this is what was actually said? — Pfhorrest

I would hope not.

:yikes:

However, I have witnessed otherwise professional minority women, profess much the same view. "Anyone other than another old white male"... <--------------that was one opinion about the possibility of electing Bernie Sanders as president.

:yikes:

This was a white person, though. There were a couple other white people who took on the role of talking for all white people, which was annoying.

One person spoke to all the white people, explaining how it's difficult to acknowledge that their existence as a white person was harmful to others, — Marchesk

This is obviously problematic. But can't we view it as a pendulum type shift? Surely, we can admit that white males have had a massive impact on world history for the last couple hundred years. If society is a mess, who else to blame but those in power (yes, this is rather limited thinking)? While the quote above is BS, it is better than what many women and minorities had to deal with until very recently (or still deal with - and I say "better" because there was still a room full of white employees)...so I just take the hit for now and hope rational minds win out after the persecuted get to persecute for a while.

That's too bad. I've quite a large number of black friends, loved ones, and family members who find it rather odd when white people act more offended by white privilege and racism than they themselves do. Of course, there need to be some major changes... and things change slowly. But...

"Whiteness as a bad thing" is a horribly racist sentiment. One need not blame all white people for the fact that being white had - unbeknownst to many until recently - certain accumulated advantages in American and world society/history, as a direct result of many many racists being in power for a very long time.. Most... certainly at one time. That is not unique to white people. There are still plenty more racists to be rooted out, including white ones.

However, if one frames the situation as such that all white people are being punished, in a certain sense, for things that only the racist white people have done and do, then any and all well intended attempts to affect the right kinds of change will fail, because the attempt ostracizes and vilifies the white people who are not racist. In addition, it pours gasoline on the fire of paranoid white racists who already think that many minorities are out to get them... that all the minorities are racists just like they are!

Guess what?

Many non white people are racist too!

But... NOT ALL.

This is obviously problematic. But can't we view it as a pendulum type shift? Surely, we can admit that white males have had a massive impact on world history for the last couple hundred years. If society is a mess, who else to blame but those in power (yes, this is rather limited thinking)? While the quote above is BS, it is better than what many women and minorities had to deal with until very recently (or still deal with - and I say "better" because there was still a room full of white employees)...so I just take the hit for now and hope rational minds win out after the persecuted get to persecute for a while. — ZhouBoTong

How about we 'persecute' the right people... and those, like myself, will be glad to join in. Persecute me for things that other whites have done and/or are doing... and you too(whoever 'you' may be) are guilty of the exact same fallacious thoughts as other racists.

Not all blacks are the same aside from being black. The same holds good for all ethnicities.

so I just take the hit for now and hope rational minds win out after the persecuted get to persecute for a while. — ZhouBoTong

It would be better to not have persecution. That won't remedy the injustices of the past, or make current injustices any better.

It would be better to not have persecution. That won't remedy the injustices of the past, or make current injustices any better. — Marchesk

Indeed. Misguided to say the least...

That's too bad. I've quite a large number of black friends, loved ones, and family members who find it rather odd when white people act more offended by white privilege and racism than they themselves do — creativesoul

Some minorities in the meeting were expressing concern that they were going to be subjected to this discussion because white management decided that it needed to happen. I don't know who all was consulted or pushing for this, but if it's just some of the white people, and they form the large majority in an organization, then you are putting the minority employees in an uncomfortable position as well as all the other white people who didn't ask for it. It's real easy to see how this turns into an us versus them.

"Whiteness as a bad thing" is a horribly racist sentiment. — creativesoul

It does very much sound like that, but to be fair to that position, what is being argued is that the social construction of whiteness as a category is what's been historically racist, and people born into majority white societies implicitly absorb those views when adopting that category. It actually applies to everyone in the society in a way, since the terms white, black, red, yellow, people of color, minority, etc. can all be understood as part of the racial hierarchy society tries to place everyone into.

What's not being said is that people of European descent are harmful simply from having ancestors from that continent. It's similar to the argument that gender is constructed around males getting preferential treatment, while sex is a biological reality, not the gender roles society assigns.

Some minorities in the meeting were expressing concern that they were going to be subjected to this discussion because white management decided that it needed to happen. I don't know who all was consulted or pushing for this, but if it's just some of the white people, and they form the large majority in an organization, then you are putting the minority employees in an uncomfortable position as well as all the other white people who didn't ask for it. It's real easy to see how this turns into an us versus them. — Marchesk

There is a very very real argument to be made about such white people who take it on themselves to express what they view to be the problem and what they view to be the solution to the historical affects/effects of systemic racism... including white privilege. In fact, to do such a thing, without careful consultation from those you purport to be speaking on behalf of, especially when they are there - in the room - ... well... that's just taking white privilege a bit farther. It is to employ it... in the face of attempting to resolve it.

:brow:

I would be willing to wager that those people do not have many black friends, loved ones, and/or family members with whom they have meaningful substantive discussions about the issue itself... for if they did, they would know better than to approach it without careful consultation, and they would know better than to frame the discussion as they did.

That's horrible HR... fucking horrible.

It does very much sound like that, but to be fair to that position, what is being argued is that the social construction of whiteness as a category is what's been historically racist, and people born into majority white societies implicitly absorb those views when adopting that category. It actually applies to everyone in the society in a way, since the terms white, black, red, yellow, people of color, minority, etc. can all be understood as part of the racial hierarchy society tries to place everyone into. — Marchesk

I don't buy that reasoning at all. It's akin to saying that simply because one talks in terms of different races, that one absorbs racist tendencies, thoughts, and/or beliefs. It can be true... but I am living proof that it is not always so, despite having a number of self-professed racists in my outer family circle to this very day...

And I've not gone against those views as a rebellious cause at all...

I just simply always knew that they were wrong, probably as a direct result of having close friends and loved ones throughout my life that were/are black.

It's real easy to see how this turns into an us versus them. — Marchesk

Only for those folk who already think in fallacious ways... all white people... all black people... etc.

The beginning of ending racism must include acknowledging individual differences between people of the same race.

Have you consulted any of your black friends/coworkers about the uneasiness of the meeting? Like... What the fuck was that?

Have you consulted any of your black friends/coworkers about the uneasiness of the meeting? Like... What the fuck was that? — creativesoul

Well no, but management went into crisis mode after the meeting and had an intense meeting, followed by drinking, so I heard.

Yeah...

Hopefully, they will take a few months or more to actually do a bit of research and consultation with the right sorts of people, and perhaps hire someone in a better more well informed position to help the morale at your place of employment.

The easiest way to avoid any issues revolving around white privilege and/or the residual effects/affects of systemic racism is to do more than just paying lip-service to the idea of equality and equal opportunity.

Prove that one is not part of the problem, by not being a part of the problem. That, of course, requires knowing what the problem is. Walking in another's shoes requires careful deliberate consultation with another about another's life.

It would be better to not have persecution. That won't remedy the injustices of the past, or make current injustices any better. — Marchesk

I agree. But having no persecution seems impossible (won't many people feel persecuted no matter what?). Isn't Nelson Mandela like the only example in human history of the persecuted simply asking for no persecution? Don't get me wrong, his behavior was incredibly admirable and that is definitely how we should all view these situations...but historically, we all suck at it.

How about we 'persecute' the right people... and those, like myself, will be glad to join in. Persecute me for things that other whites have done and/or are doing... and you too(whoever 'you' may be) are guilty of the exact same fallacious thoughts as other racists. — creativesoul

You are right that lumping all white people is the same type of problem as lumping all black people (or women or whatever). But I will also point out that being told I am responsible for all of mankind's suffering, isn't nearly as bad as being denied employment, education, or rights. I think you fear that these ideas will come to dominate society (and then could become a problem - whether de facto or de jure) . Wouldn't that be an incredible historical precedent? If a country that is mostly white voted to limit the rights of white people...I am not saying it is impossible, but I am not worried.

You are right that lumping all white people is the same type of problem as lumping all black people (or women or whatever). But I will also point out that being told I am responsible for all of mankind's suffering, isn't nearly as bad as being denied employment, education, or rights. I think you fear that these ideas will come to dominate society (and then could become a problem - whether de facto or de jure) . Wouldn't that be an incredible historical precedent? If a country that is mostly white voted to limit the rights of white people...I am not saying it is impossible, but I am not worried. — ZhouBoTong

That's not a worry of mine. My worry is that the root problems underlying racism will continue unabated if we approach this with the same fallacious thinking that constitutes the problem. All racism needs to be corrected. One cannot correct it if one uses it.

My worry is that the root problems underlying racism will continue unabated if we approach this with the same fallacious thinking that constitutes the problem. — creativesoul

Wait, won't the root problems always exist? If we don't tribalize over race, won't it just be something else? Religion, nationality, gender, politics, and sports teams all have the potential to foster this mentality. Heck, I used to know a Navy seal that told stories of picking fights with those "jarheads" (Marines).

Life has NOT convinced me that most people care put in the effort to do the reasoning you are referring to. So we often have to take roundabout routes instead of a straight line.

All racism needs to be corrected. One cannot correct it if one uses it. — creativesoul

This makes me think of, "violence can stop violence, but violence can never create lasting peace". This seems absolutely true and seems the same type of statement that you are making (do you agree or is it different for some reason?). However, does this really teach us to never stop violence with violence? Notice it does not, as immediate violence must often be met with immediate violence for short term well-being. One will not consider long term well-being when they do not even have it in the short term.

I will not go as far as saying "we should use racism to combat racism"...but since I have not seen any great examples as to how to end racism, I am not immediately offended by the attempt.

Wait, won't the root problems always exist? — ZhouBoTong

Will people always devalue other humans based upon insufficient evidence and irrational reasoning?

Probably.

That doesn't mean that we ought not do everything we can do to eliminate such.

Right?

:brow:

I think the irony here is that their insistence that their “whiteness” is harmful is itself a form of white supremacy. They see themselves and their “whiteness” as a force supreme and primary to other similar qualia. So it’s taking white supremacy and attempting to run with it in another direction.

That's an interesting observation. Whiteness remains at the center, for good or bad. It's the thing to focus on. Kind of narcissistic.

their existence as a white person was harmful to others, — Marchesk

I think in a way it was good that this was put out in this form, rather than simply being implicit. Because then it can be dealt with. I have sympathy for that feeling and if I'd been black, I'd probably feel that way at times. But if that is a position. IOW considered a factual statement, in its universal, general form, then there is no discussion.

There is no reason to have a discussion with someone whose existence is pernicious.

That means it was better they did not exist.

Improving that person's behavior does not change the fact that they exist.

So, it doesn't fit with teambuilding/development.

Anyone who assumes that and considers it a fact and a basis for a meeting is confused, about themselves, because the only thing a white person can do with that is feel permanent guilt and shame or end their existence. It is not a basis for improving things.

I will not go as far as saying "we should use racism to combat racism"...but since I have not seen any great examples as to how to end racism, I am not immediately offended by the attempt. — ZhouBoTong

I tend to think the focus here to ‘combat’ or even ‘end’ racism is misguided. The theoretical aim of the workshop is to increase ‘awareness’ of minority experience - it’s just poorly executed, or poorly understood by the facilitators.

What I mean by ‘minority experience’ is basically an experience of humility, or devalued conceptual identity that is common to minorities. The resistance to it is normal, but the capacity to experience this kind of humility is important to understanding the subjective experience of racial disadvantage, even when active discrimination does not occur.

What if the participants decided, rather than resist and deflect by blaming managers or the decision-makers, to ‘take the hit’ and experience the humility and sense of persecution that comes with their conceptual identity being devalued. “I am harmful to minorities for no other reason than that I am white.” Forget the question of whether or not this is accurate, and just go with the affective experience of humility and guilt that comes from attributing significance to the thought itself, and the impact of cognitive dissonance it creates in relation to how you see yourself.

Now, let’s change the conceptual identities: “I am harmful to whites for no other reason than that I am black.” What I understand from the expressed experiences of minorities (particularly here in Australia) is that this fairly closely matches the information they receive from the sum of their everyday interactions with our shared conceptual systems.

It’s not anything one can isolate as active or conscious discrimination - rather it’s the little things that add up: the flash of body language, sideways glance or facial expression that we hardly realise we’re even doing, that we may suddenly be conscious of and chastise ourselves for, then dismiss as too small to be noticed. These little interactions are felt more than consciously noticed, but they all inform our shared conceptual systems, in particular the affective response we have to our conceptual identity: the value and significance we attribute to who we are.

So the behaviour we understand to be ‘racism’ or ‘injustice’ is not what the workshop would be trying to address, in my view. Perhaps people shouldn’t get so defensive.

Anyone who assumes that and considers it a fact and a basis for a meeting is confused, about themselves, because the only thing a white person can do with that is feel permanent guilt and shame or end their existence. It is not a basis for improving things. — Coben

This reminds me of the author of the webcomic Sinfest, who since 2011 has turned it into an author tract for his particular bizarre form of SWERF 'n' TERF radical feminism, one aspect of which appears to be the belief that there is no such thing as a male ally. Which then raises the question of what the author thinks he himself is? He seems to be riddled with shame and guilt, from what we've seen of his literal author avatar in the comic, so maybe he thinks that he really isn't a male ally, because as a male he cannot be, but he's nevertheless trying anyway? (And rather poorly, as he dismisses the views of women who disagree with him as just them being brainwashed by the patriarchy, rather than honestly listening to what they have to say about their own lived experience as the type of person he claims to be defending).

It's a tricky situation. Perhaps he has good reason to feel guilt and shame. Perhaps he feels guilt and shame because his parents did shit to him and it's getting displaced. We all have some reason, I would guess, to regret things we've done or attitudes we've had and perhaps still have to some degree. But you can't build your own life around it being wrong to be alive. I mean, you can, sort of, but its a damaging paradox and I doubt it helps women or other races in the slightest.

I sort of think of it this way.

Let's say there's a woman who has been sexually abused by men. She distrusts men. She feels like there is something wrong with them in general.

Well, shit, who wouldn't have those feelings and there are, of course, certain aspects of truth in there.

I haven't the slightest issue with her feelings and attitudes. I hope they can evolve over time and her emotions can begin de-universalizing. But I have no schedule for her and if her abuse was long term or extremely violent, jeez, I just hope she takes care of herself and if hating men gets her through the day in part, well, go for it.

But I can't have a meeting with her based on my existence is damaging. And really, why would she want to have a meeting with me. There is no point to that meeting. We can't rationally discuss a solution to my no longer existing. If I think so, then I should quit that job and if I can't isolate myself from women entirely, I should commit suicide. If she thinks so, then there is no point in discussing it with me. That would be doing harm to her.

So any meeting where the assumption is one party should not exist is a ridiculous meeting. Or where one party is considered damaging to life, per se.