You're correct when you say that the left has a problem with their tactics. — Echarmion

So I think it's true that there needs to be a new approach. — Echarmion

So, we agree. But if you do have a bone of contention with something I said, you can quote it and I'll deal with it.

Yeah, the wonders of supply-side economics. "...water trickles down. Put it uphill and let it go and it will reach the driest little spot. But ... money trickles up. Give it to the people at the bottom and the people at the top will have it before night."

Federal tax cuts also increase after tax inequality and a deficit that's the envy of the world.

Well, I think the strategy that I think is faulty is outlined in this paragraph here:

The Senate and the electoral college are set up in such a way that disadvantages the left. So, when you move left in areas that can result in local gains in liberal areas, you risk the Senate and you risk the electoral college. And I think you know this, so I'm not going to go into detail on it unless you insist on pressing the fantasy that somehow a big heave-ho left would be uniformly politically advantageous. And no, it doesn't matter that left-wing policies are actually popular with the general public because the general public does not decide who runs the country, a small group of voters in states with outsize representation in the Senate and the electoral college do. — Baden

For one, while accurate for the US, several European countries have similar political trends without the same amount of systemic issues. And in those countries, too, the moderate left seems to be bleeding dry. And even if we are only talking about the US, the strategy to react to authoritarian nationalists with non-threatening moderates basically concedes the field to the authoritarians.

One of the main mistakes the left seems to be doing is that they assume that no-one wants to vote for nationalism, xenophobia, regressive social norms etc. That people who vote for these things are, at best, poor misinformed souls, and at worst a basket of deplorables. But these policies do have popular support, and will get votes. And they are very amenable to being spun into a justification for power grabs.

In order to defeat these currents, it's not enough to worry about not scaring suburban voters. You must offer something that is more enticing than the snake oil. There is no way forward if the left cannot offer a vision at least as desirable as that which the right offers it's supporters. And someone with the actual credentials to back up their words.

I don't think there's much disagreement. It's not about being moderate, it's about reality and appearances, packaging if you like. The ratio of actual policy achievement to socialist scare factor (the fuel of Republican propagandists' political wet dreams) needs to increase drastically. Wolves in sheep's clothing, not sheep in wolves'. If you can forge a loud left populist line that won't backfire where it matters in terms of gaining the power to effectuate it, great. But so far, that's been failing.

I think the Dems need to move back to their roots representing working class people and deal with their problems and recognise class warfare is alive and well and show the GOP is selling them out at every turn they can. — Benkei

I think you know I don't think you're a nutjob. And it's not about what I think anyway, it's about what can and can't be done in a hostile political environment. My disagreement is not fundamentally with your principles but with your approach. — Baden

Can probably learn from what's happened to Corbyn in the UK. He's currently getting ratfucked
by a party schism. "The centre cannot hold" does not appeal to people whose career is holding the left of centre, their crisis of political legitimacy be damned.

He's currently getting ratfucked — fdrake

Same principle by which Trump is managing, among a large proportion of the population, to paint the Dems as trying to steal the election: Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty. Now that calls for loud and forceful pushback.

Now that justifies loud and forceful pushback. — Baden

Is definitely happening. Corbyn's suspension from the party was ended, but his position in party hasn't been reinstated. If only publicly committing to reform for the antisemitism complaints process within Labour was enough...

And that's before we get into the conflicts of interest in the EHRC. Who refused to investigate Bojo's party for islamophobia despite being presented with much stronger evidence that it was happening.

On the necessity of telling the Biden administration to go fuck itself as quickly as possible:

"The Biden administration will generate backlash just like that which arose in response to the Obama administration, and that backlash will be more severe than its previous iteration. This is absolutely guaranteed. You can only oppress, neglect and enrage a population so much before the discontent begins to grow. There is absolutely nothing American leftists can do to prevent this backlash from coming. They will have absolutely no say in this administration's policies or behavior; BidenCorp has no reason to listen to them, has made no pretense of having any interest in listening to them, and is even freezing Sanders and Warren out of cabinet roles already.

All US leftists will have any control over is whether this backlash will break to the left, or if it will break to the far right. ... What the left can do is get ahead of the game. Take control of the anti-Biden, anti-establishment pushback by leading the charge--sooner, more aggressively, and more compellingly than the far right does. Use the awfulness of the Biden administration to ignite a true leftward zeitgeist in mainstream America that is so strong it eclipses the inevitable rightist backlash in energy and appeal.

...But the ball needs to start rolling on this now. Not after the Georgia runoffs, not after Biden takes office, not after the midterms: now. The longer US leftists wait to start pushing this thing forward, the less of a head start you'll have on the rightists while they're fixated on Trump's recounts and legal challenges. You'll only be able to lead the backlash if you get in early and hit the ground running as fast as you can".

https://caityjohnstone.medium.com/biden-will-likely-be-worse-than-obama-the-left-must-lead-the-backlash-or-the-right-will-f2cb8623d015

--

Whatever momentum and disgust people felt with Trump simply needs to be transposed and continued with the current Biden administration. The 'victory' that people got with Trump's loss was an enemy that might be more easily replaced next time. The strategy is not to 'pull Biden to the left' - a joke of a cause: it's to make a Biden-like administration impossible so that the next person does the exact opposite - and not from the right.

BLM was doing fine until "defund the police", I think, which as a slogan is terrible.

The centrist muppets are already beginning to moan and bitch that the left won't play ball with Biden's corporate-soaked transition team:

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/transition-playbook/2020/11/19/is-the-left-wing-overplaying-its-hand-490948

An analysis from elsewhere which I love:

"It's interesting. On the one hand they're displaying their complete arrogance towards and disregard of the left: "Even though we've given the donors everything and you worse than nothing, shut up or we won't even occasionally dangle meager false promises while we're constantly running you down." The left is in the worst of abusive relationships with the Dems. But, on the other hand, being called out clearly bothers them. They need the left cover to keep the idiot Dem base on board with virtue signaling. The Dems brand relies on left cover, without which they would be seen for who they really are: Republicans.

So, we can either behave, in which case we are deceptively dangled the false friendship of the Biden administration while every post filled and policy enacted is adverse to our interests. Result: the movement dies and we get nothing. Or, wage open political war, strip them of their left cover, and out them for the Republican fascists they truly are. Result: the movement lives and we get nothing (or maybe something depending on how hard we fight)".

I really like this point that the dems rely on the left for 'cover'. And it's true that if stripped of this cover and attacked equally from the right, there's a chance the party will be left occupying a narrow strip of land with nowhere to hide their shitty corporate slavishness and be isolated as the neoliberal shells they truly are. All the more reason, again, for the left to forcefully divorce themselves from anything Biden touches.

Still rearranging the deck chairs on the USA Titanic ... and from your well-stocked dinghy no less. Must be that old 'hands-off iceberg avoidance' method. Leftist passengers take note: another effin' no skin-in-the-game plan. :brow:

Like "BLM" - discussed here. Apparently, reactionaries are more adept at sloganeering and selling propaganda than liberals or progressives are.

Didn't realize you were just an undercover corporatist shill. Shame.

Yeah I really don’t get the objection to SLX’s comments now that the election is over. We did the necessary evil of voting for the lesser evil, now we’ve got a better target to attack who might more conceivably budge a little if pulled hard enough from “his side”, so let’s get to the attacking and the pulling. Congratulations Biden, thank you for defeating Trump, now fucking do something good instead of just coasting on being the lesser evil.

https://psychcentral.com/blog/how-to-recognize-the-signs-of-trauma-bonding/

Black Lives Matter evokes emotional resistance in those who don't really think everybody is equal. I don't think those people are going to be swayed by something more nuanced. The cognitive dissonance of seeing widespread support might cause some change. So I think the slogan is fine. I don't think these considerations apply to "defund the police" though.

Uncalled for. Jesus. Can we discuss tactics without morally condemning others? There's more roads to Rome, not everybody approaches problems the same way and most problems have several solutions.

I'm not objecting to SLX's comments - just pointing out that his ad hominems on Biden are graffiti'd with vacuous, often glittering, generalities - which began well before the election, btw, almost as soon as Biden won the nomination.

"Reform the Police" would have been much less inflammatory and accurate (like "Black Lives Also Matter" would have), nuance vs cognitive dissonance notwithstanding. Not to persuade but to inform the uninformed.

Can we discuss tactics without morally condemning others? — Benkei

I was responding to an empty, substanceless quip that engaged with nothing of what I posted. Consider it a response in kind.

which began well before the election, btw, almost as soon as Biden won the nomination. — 180 Proof

Frankly, given Biden's 40+ year record of fucking people over and ruining lives, I've begun much too late.

And that's before we get into the conflicts of interest in the EHRC. Who refused to investigate Bojo's party for islamophobia despite being presented with much stronger evidence that it was happening.

Quite, anti-semitism is a reliable dog whistle because of the holocaust, it's so easy to slam Labour with it because all the conspiracy theories around Jews controlling the western world. Corbyn was an easy target because of his back catalogue of activism.

Our establishment is also endemically anti-socialist. Which would effortlessly convert anti EU smears into resentment and distrust. The EU's social democratic politics is viewed as a retrograde step, a straight jacket, or trap in which the UK's exceptionalism will become ensnared.

Now the right wing populism is in the ascendant riding this wave of resentment and distrust, the obese rump of the Tory ruling classes is exposed any figleaf of wealth creation usually employed has been ripped off by the pandemic and we see the naked beast of Tory privelidge and twattery writ large. Helplessly/blindly steering us over the precipice. The epitome of which is our very own Blojo, with the absurdity of working class folk seeing him as "one of them", " one of us", across the land.

Frankly, given Biden's 40+ year record of fucking people over, I've begun much too late. — StreetlightX

Agreed. So stop 'titling at swastikas' for a couple of months and wait to see, like the rest of us on the barracades, what modes of critical resistance will be needed in response to Biden's policies and state actions after he's sworn in next year.

Why? Account for your position.

Check my post history on the relevant threads. Bedtime here, mate. Back for more tomorrow.

Btw, tr45h LOSES GEORGIA AGAIN. :victory: :mask:

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55006188

Btw, tr45h LOSES GEORGIA AGAIN. :victory: :mask:

Nice, we can put out the trash can now.

It's fun watching him lose the election every day.

Meanwhile, from Erin Brockovich, eponym of the movie in her name:

"As picks for President-elect Joe Biden’s Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) transition team were announced, I felt concerned and disheartened about a chemical industry insider being on the list. Are you kidding me?

Michael McCabe, a former employee of Biden and a former deputy Environmental Protection Agency administrator, later jumped ship to work as a consultant on communication strategy for DuPont during a time when the chemical company was looking to fight regulations of their star chemical perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA) also known as C8. The toxic manmade chemical is used in everything from waterproof clothes, stain-resistant textiles and food packaging to non-stick pans. The compound has been linked to lowered fertility, cancer and liver damage. The Guardian reported this week that Harvard school of public health professor Philippe Grandjean, who studies environmental health, warns that PFAS chemicals, of which PFOA is one, might reduce the efficacy of a Covid-19 vaccine. This smells of the dawn of the same old. To quote the Who: meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

These scumfucks are not 'waiting' to fuck you over - in fact they cannot wait to do exactly that. Wait and see? Perhaps consider 'seeing' right fucking now. Wait any longer and these people will pull your waiting eyeballs through your mouths while waving rainbow flags.

I know a house cleaning lady with lupus who depends on ACA (Obamacare). Biden is a step in the right direction for her, but millions are still teetering on the edge. I don't really understand what kind of president could help them.

It's fun watching him lose the election every day. — Michael

Hopefully it will continue every day until some point around Epiphany, at which point he'll be moved to start packing his bags.

Biden is in a position to take what would have otherwise been known as a conservative, responsible approach to the pandemic response... and I suspect he will. The only difference between Biden and traditional conservatives of the 80's, 90's, and 00's is his stance on gay marriage and abortion. Economically, I'd be happily surprised should he prove me wrong...

Back to normal...

Brief retrospect:

2016: prior counts, Trump warns of rigged elections
2016: after counts, Trump makes fun of sore losers
2016: Trump says recounts would be a scam to delegitimize him

Trump Administration's Mishandling of the Coronavirus Response by Congresswoman Jackie Speier

2020: after counts, Trump claims invalid election, shooting lawsuits from the hip
2020: some make fun of Trump as a sore loser
2020: Trump has acquired cult followers making threats, some spend their time searching for an illusive yet extensive election boogeyman

You'd think a population of 300 million could pick better, more competent, reliable leaders?
I guess, of a larger population, mad fringe can also be proportionally larger, more visible/seductive?

Good article on why Trump sucks: https://news.yahoo.com/trump-stress-tested-election-system-130724112.html

Sorry, but what in the absolute Kraken-releasing fuck? Districcoiccct... :fire: :chin: