I think it was over $300 which he used to get high. I suppose it's possible he could have been thinking "I am doing this in pursuit of the Good" but I think that's extremely unlikely in view of other factors. — BitconnectCarlos
I just don't find it helpful at all to be like "oh well if he only knew eudamonia or whatever or was aware of the existence of, I don't know, higher pleasures.... I'm sorry but it's just babble. — BitconnectCarlos
Read about Carl Panzram if you want serious psychological insight into a sadistic serial killer. He wrote a book detailing his thoughts. The man fundamentally hated humanity. He hated the universe and he had a deep-seeded rage. Understanding this misanthropy and rage will take you much further in terms of understanding evil than someone misunderstanding rationality. — BitconnectCarlos
I also think it's very questionable to give any sort of universal prescription for what 'happiness' amounts to as if it were just the same for every human being. — BitconnectCarlos
many if not all of the millennium development goals can be achieved by controlling and/or eliminating some of what may be described as our "negative" natural tendencies e.g greed in re environmental destruction, gender bias which is an age-old problem with respect to women empowerment — TheMadFool
If, in that moment, he was not convinced his actions would be good for him, why would he have committed his crime?
Why couldn't a serial killer be guided by a flawed perception?
The person you describe doesn't seem like a happy person, nor does he seem to make decisions that would turn him into one. It seems to me he is hopelessly lost.
I am, however, making an educated guess that the persons you describe are unhappy people. I also think I'm correct in that regard.
It seems like you interpreted the quote I shared earlier as 'every person desires to be a morally good person', but that is not what the quote says and not how I explained it.
It seems to me you are using a generalization about what are supposedly natural tendencies in humans to explain complicated problems like free will and the problem of evil. I think this is unsound.
I'll ask again, what about all the people who do not exhibited those tendencies? Are they not human? And if they are, then apparently the tendencies aren't as natural as you consider them to be. — Tzeentch
My question, really, was whether you were coming at this question believing in God. — Brett
Is it just every person does what they perceive to be good for themselves? — BitconnectCarlos
In sum, I'm just saying it's just not right to let rationality (or someone lack of) take center stage when other motivations or drives of action take a much bigger role. — BitconnectCarlos
... but we can generalize in that we can say most/almost all/the majority of some particular class of objects are <insert predicate>. — TheMadFool
I'm agnostic, almost atheistic. — TheMadFool
I’m trying to work out whether you’re looking at this as God having given us free will? Is that right? — Brett
I can see the practical merit in that, but not the philosophical one.
Once we agree that some people aren't naturally evil, aren't we drawn to the question why that is so? — Tzeentch
If it’s instinctive then I assume it’s natural. — Brett
Therefore evil exists without the cause being ignorance. — Brett
And why would murder be instinctive? — Brett
Such as?
Don't you find it telling that you need to go to the extremest of examples in order to find a fault in my argument?
Other motivations or drives would be jealousy, hate, a sexual motive, or just the implicit recognition that the life of the victim doesn't matter and that murder could be convenient. — BitconnectCarlos
I honestly believe the choice to murder in some cases is essentially just someone saying "fuck it" to the universe and moral instruction. I honestly believe that to be the case. They are choosing to turn their back on that. — BitconnectCarlos
However, we are talk about evil here. — BitconnectCarlos
Lately I have seen a number of interviews from convicted murderers so if you want to talk about evil that seems like a good resource. — BitconnectCarlos
I do think it's a grave mistake to chalk up all evil to ignorance. It would imply to me that you could sit in front of, say, Ted Bundy and explain to him "well if only you knew the wonders of Philosophy and...." — BitconnectCarlos
I don't think it is that simple.
A lot of psychopathic behavior can be directly linked to abuses people have endured when they were children, for example.
But he too derived sexual pleasure from his acts, leading us back to the person always pursuing what they think benefit them and deluded perception.
Especially when I was a moral nihilist in my teens I would just do things because "fuck it" - there was no standard of morality present that I could even ever meaningfully violate. — BitconnectCarlos
I do believe that the vast majority of men, in their hearts, know that certain things are absolutely wrong but they just choose to ignore it or deliberately violate it. — BitconnectCarlos
I'm well aware that abuse and maltreatment plays a huge role, but ultimately one's troubles are their own. — BitconnectCarlos
Why is that a deluded perception? It did benefit him. He got off, sexually. — BitconnectCarlos
You were testing your convictions on your surroundings, trying to validate them. The benefit you were seeking seems obvious to me, even if you may not be convinced yourself.
I believe so too. Which I why I do not agree with the notion that humans are naturally evil.
Did Bundy's actions made him a happier person?
Well, we can't look into the man's head, but I'll wager an educated guess that he was probably deeply unhappy.
We're now experiencing difficulty at this notion of "happiness."
From what I understand about a really evil guy like Carl Panzram is that he may have reached this "happy" state if the entire universe burst into flames.
I feel like you're pushing a different notion of happiness though. I feel like you're pushing one that's a little more universal, maybe something more in line with Eudaimonia? I thought I suggested this idea to you earlier but you shot it down.
Happiness is a difficult subject though. Something might make you happy in the short term, or it could be unpleasant in the moment but form a good long-term memory. I would usually view happiness/content as a subjective thing, but I'm not totally closed off to the notion of some sort of Eudaimonic happiness either. — BitconnectCarlos
I would simply counter the problem of evil with the problem of good:
If the Devil exists:
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is benevolent.
Is he willing, but not able? Then he is impotent.
Is he both able and willing to prevent good? Then where cometh good?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him Devil? — IvoryBlackBishop
I just don't consider evil to be a natural tendency, but a tendency born out of ignorance — Tzeentch
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