So your faith in the FDA comes from...? — Isaac
It's more that I have faith that neither Pfizer nor Moderna want to deal with the legal downside of giving false info about their testing. — frank
At least you said so:
You think those billions now poured into various vaccine programs by major countries won't have an effect? — ssu
Yes, absolutely I think that — Isaac — ssu
I could list the full rap sheet, but it's common knowledge which has already been publicly written about at great length, there's little point in me reproducing it here. If you're not convinced already, just by being involved in healthcare, then you probably never will be. — Isaac
Pfizer. 2004 Cereblex, trials showed evidence of elevated risk of heart problems and they withheld them. $894 million in lawsuits. Didn't even break their stride. — Isaac
Pfizer's lack of honesty was about Celebrex being easier on the stomach. And sure, that's bad, especially for all the people who ended up in the hospital with GI bleeds. It's terrible. I don't see what it has to do with the safety of Pfizer's vaccine though. — frank
Pfizer said in October that no completed study had ever shown any increased heart risks related to Celebrex. ..
...the 1999 study, which was intended to examine whether Celebrex could treat Alzheimer’s disease, found that the number of Celebrex patients suffering heart attacks was almost four times that of those taking a placebo. Pfizer’s own analysis found the difference statistically significant.
But the study was never published and not submitted to the Food and Drug Administration until June 2001, four months after the F.D.A. conducted a major review of the safety of Vioxx and Celebrex.
the 1999 study, which was intended to examine whether Celebrex could treat Alzheimer’s disease, found that the number of Celebrex patients suffering heart attacks was almost four times that of those taking a placebo. Pfizer’s own analysis found the difference statistically significant.
Well, good to weigh those negative effects. Yet do weigh then them on the fact that now the US has lost daily the equivalent of those lost in 9/11 to Covid-19 and the pandemic has killed more than heart disease kills annually. So what does 9 months compare to two years?The entire argument I've been presenting is about the negative effects it will have, for goodness' sake. — Isaac
Moderna will soon begin testing its vaccine in 3,000 teens age 12-17. ...The study is set to finish in June 2022 ...it’s normal that studies are conducted first in adults, then older children and teens down to young kids....hopeful that by the school term of 2021 … we will certainly have a vaccine I think that we could administer to children over 12 ...Moderna is currently awaiting emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration for its mRNA vaccine that could be distributed shortly. ...Moderna said it expects to have 20 million doses available in the U.S. by the end of 2020 and between 100 million and 125 million doses available globally in the first quarter of 2021. -- Boston Herald
Yet do weigh then them on the fact that now the US has lost daily the equivalent of those lost in 9/11 to Covid-19 and the pandemic has killed more than heart disease kills annually. — ssu
Then all pharmaceuticals developed and released to the public carry relatively high risk to be counterbalanced against vastly greater gain. — magritte
None of the trials currently under way are designed to detect a reduction in any serious outcome such as hospital admissions, use of intensive care, or deaths. Nor are the vaccines being studied to determine whether they can interrupt transmission of the virus.
The real concern is not side effects, it's ineffectiveness. — Isaac
I would have said adverse side effects are the bigger concern. 1 out of a million people vaccinated for small pox will die from the vaccine. So if we vaccinate everyone in the UK, we know we'll be killing a bunch of people. Approving a vaccine is a heavy decision because you could hurt people who would be fine otherwise. — frank
Ineffectiveness should have shown up in the phase 3 testing of either Pfizer or Moderna. — frank
I was kind of surprised they were saying 95% for the mRNA. — frank
no lives are ever "saved" eh. The end gets delayed, best case scenario. That's it. The finish line is moved back a bit, but the race always ends. — Book273
First of all, Isaac.How does the number of Covid deaths impact on the likely efficacy of the vaccine as a means of reducing them (together with collateral deaths from pandemic-related impacts)? Is there some threshold of deaths at which a previously inefficient approach to reducing them suddenly becomes efficient?
It seems to me the number of deaths only serves to make it all the more urgent that we work out some effective course of action. So an argument about the negative effects of any strategy is not to be 'weighed against' the death rates, it's fully about the death rate. — Isaac
Seriously. Would we trust a massive multinational business to act in the interests of the wider community under any other circumstances? Do we need to go through the track record of giant multinationals with social welfare? — Isaac
What we need, to escape this pandemic, is a way of minimising hospital admissions among the vulnerable and reducing transmission. Two things we have absolutely no idea if the vaccine will do because it's not been tested for either. — Isaac
Rather than just invest in the healthcare services that could have saved the overwhelming majority of those lives? — Isaac
Where the corners have been cut in the "race to a vaccine" is that before the approval was gotten, the large scale production of the vaccine was started. This is the multi-million dollar risk here, what was deemed OK. — ssu
Rather than just invest in the healthcare services that could have saved the overwhelming majority of those lives? — Isaac
This is simply not true. It eats holes in people's hearts, it destroys brain tissue, it turns lung into concrete. — frank
Yes, Isaac, we need a vaccine. — frank
Why don't you listen to Faucci?You'd both have some evidence to back up these claims I presume? — Isaac
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