I suppose the covid policy that we were all forced to comply with did him no good. — Merkwurdichliebe

All spin, no substance. That's our world!

All spin, no substance. That's our world! — frank

We all maxed, vasked, and locked down, what else can we be expected to do?

We all maxed, vasked, and locked down, what else can we be expected to do? — Merkwurdichliebe

Nothing. As soon as the virus went AWOL in NY it was a foregone conclusion that we were headed for herd immunity. All over America, hospitals adjusted to devote all their resources to dealing with covid, and we still ran out of room and equipment.

You locked down to try to slow the spread so the hospital system wouldn't be more overloaded than it was.

Without the lockdowns, you would have gone outside in the morning to see what the people in 1918 saw: dead people laying in their yards.

I understand why nobody gets this. You didn't see what was happening in the hospitals. How could you know?

I suppose the covid policy that we were all forced to comply with did him no good. — Merkwurdichliebe

Presumably countless others like him were saved.

Anybody who saw what happened in Italy could've known. And I remember images from NY where people were stacked in the corridors needing ventilators but there obviously were not enough around.

Governments had let slide pandemic reserves, tossed their playbooks when it did happen (if they had one) and most of them didn't define exit strategies. They (western European countries) screwed over healthcare personnel to boot (we'll applaud you but fuck your raise after we've cut your budget in the past 2 decades), who understandably left in droves, leaving healthcare in shambles in many countries. Waiting lists are the longest ever in the Netherlands.

Without the lockdowns, you would have gone outside in the morning to see what the people in 1918 saw: dead people laying in their yards. — frank

That would be pretty grim.

Nowadays people are at least dying out of sight, part of the pool of 'unexplained' excess deaths.

You locked down to try to slow the spread so the hospital system wouldn't be more overloaded than it was.

Without the lockdowns, you would have gone outside in the morning to see what the people in 1918 saw: dead people laying in their yards.

I understand why nobody gets this. You didn't see what was happening in the hospitals. How could you know? — frank

:100:

(we'll applaud you but fuck your raise after we've cut your budget in the past 2 decades) — Benkei

:up: :clap:

Waiting lists are the longest ever in the Netherlands. — Benkei

Here too. The waiting list for whatever takes more than one year. My father needs to check his prostate periodically, and the last check was in July 2022. We have been waiting for the next check since then. Luckily, we can have an appointment with the doc in December 2023 or February 2024. :roll:

You locked down to try to slow the spread so the hospital system wouldn't be more overloaded than it was.

Without the lockdowns, you would have gone outside in the morning to see what the people in 1918 saw: dead people laying in their yards. — frank

That's the excuse they used on us all. But that wasn't the case in the hospitals in my area, which is what made the blanket policy so dumbfounded.

But that wasn't the case in the hospitals in my area — Merkwurdichliebe

It happened everywhere in the US. We talk to each other, you know. :razz:

It happened everywhere in the US. We talk to each other, you know. :razz: — frank

You didn't talk to everyone. And I imagine, given the hyper-sensorship and public stigma towards anyone who might have opposed the official narrative, it would have been practically impossible to talk to everyone.

You didn't talk to everyone. And I imagine, given the hyper-sensorship and public stigma towards anyone who might have opposed the official narrative, it would have been practically impossible to talk to everyone. — Merkwurdichliebe

I meant we healthcare workers talk to each other. There wasn't any official narrative that conflicted with what was happening on the ground as far as I'm aware. I didn't realize how deeply suspicious a large chunk of the population had become until I talked to one of my friends and found that he'd escaped to a dystopian nightmare. I'm not really sure what accounts for that belief that those in leadership positions are perpetrating a giant fraud. I mean, when they give massive tax breaks to the rich, it's wide out in the open. They aren't trying to hide it. They don't have to.

I'm not really sure what accounts for that belief that those in leadership positions are perpetrating a giant fraud. I mean, when they give massive tax breaks to the rich, it's wide out in the open. They aren't trying to hide it. They don't have to. — frank

You can't think of anything?

Regardless...those in leadership positions did not hide their covid scam. They publicly censored and rebuked anyone who opposed, right out in the open, for everyone to see. Also, the massive transfers of wealth, as well as the outright dismissal of constitutional law, were in no way concealed from anyone. No...they didn't have too hide much, they stirred up such hysteria with the mindless mob, and It took care of nearly all would be dissidents that could have otherwise proved troublesome to the agenda of our outstanding leadership. A round of applause for the amazing job they did, are doing, and will probably continue to do.

I wonder how many of those (in US), who have been bought and sold over the covid policy, were opposed to the Iraq War back in 2003? My guess...not one.

Regardless...those in leadership positions did not hide their covid scam — Merkwurdichliebe

That damn covid scam! It's still killing people! Not as many as it used to tho. It doesn't really rate much higher than flu these days. I'm taking a break from this forum for a while. Thanks for the discussion. :smile:

That damn covid scam! It's still killing people! Not as many as it used to tho. It doesn't really rate much higher than flu these days. I'm taking a break from this forum for a while. Thanks for the discussion. :smile: — frank

I wish you well :blush:

I wish you well :blush: — Merkwurdichliebe

thank you!

Nobel prize went to researchers who were ridiculed and ignored prior to COVID-19.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/covid-lockdowns-big-fail-joe-nocera-bethany-mclean-book-excerpt.html

A good article about the lockdowns. As much as I hate Trump, he was right about reopening schools. The classes I've taught since schools reopened have been the lowest I've ever seen. That's anecdotal, but the research also bear that out. I teach in a low income area, and that demographic was especially hard-hit by the school closures.

yup. It was all a bunch of tyrannical fuckery. The more time passes, the more it will become apparent. For instance: the fuckery over covid-vaccine-injury-claims.

[...] pandemic-era emergency declarations bar the vaccine injured from suing vaccine manufacturers in civil court. Those with a COVID-19 vaccine injury are also prohibited from pursuing compensation through the standard Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP)

CNN commentary on the comparative mortality rates in Australia v Florida as of September 2021 'peak pandemic'. Australia and Florida have roughly similar populations (the illustration shown is at 5:49). In the preamble DeSantis is seen saying that Australia is more or less on par with the People's Republic of China for enforcing prevention measures. So when he says 'live free or die', I guess he really means it.



(Or is it live free AND die? :chin: )

"

CICP is designed to provide compensation to individuals who suffer serious injuries as a direct result of the administration of certain countermeasures, such as vaccines, drugs, or medical devices, used to respond to public health emergencies. It covers injuries resulting from pandemic vaccines and other countermeasures.

VICP, on the other hand, specifically focuses on compensating individuals who experience injuries or adverse reactions caused by vaccines covered under the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. This program primarily deals with routine childhood vaccines.

How fortuitously convenient that the live public covid vaccination experiment falls within protected cicp guidelines. So very convenient for those pharmaceutical companies that suffered so much under the weight of record profits during the pandemic.

Covid could have been a great opportunity to reconsider our relationship with our health.

But no, better grind society to a halt and stake our lives on 'quickfix' experimental vaccines the next time we fear being knocked over by a stiff breeze.

Without the lockdowns, you would have gone outside in the morning to see what the people in 1918 saw: dead people laying in their yards. — frank

I'm not so sure about this. Even if nearly 7 million deaths is a lot.

You see, even if covid would be as deadly as spanish flu, medicine has improved quite a lot in hundred years. The closest you now came was the NY officials burying "John Doe's" in a ditch. Modern medicine has improved quite a lot. The truth is that modern society, however it goes against the views of it's critics, is far more immune for pandemics when they hit than people were hundred or hundreds of years ago.

'quickfix' experimental vaccines — Tzeentch

I partially agree with you, but without those 'quickfix' experimental vaccines, everything would have ended up in a disaster. At least, considering those weak and sick citizens who were more vulnerable when they were infected by Covid...

What people want to inject into their bodies is none of my business (and what I inject into mine should be none of theirs, but alas the latter was not self-explanatory during covid...)

The weak and the sick should be accomodated in some way, but not by having everybody put their lives on hold. The damage done by this is immense, but it is less visible than covid deaths (the media plays a large role in that, but I digress). "Unexplainable" excess deaths, etc.

In the Netherlands (where I live) it was a political choice, in my opinion. Politicians felt it would reflect badly on them if IC capacity was below what it needed to be as a result of their policies. Better smear it out over the entire population and play coy. By their own estimates, they knowingly accepted as much as threefold the damage by choosing this approach. It was criminal. I have no other word for it.

Also, at what point do the people who voluntarily partake in unhealthy lifestyles get to take responsibility?

Let's be graceful and treat year one of covid as a wake-up call where we don't go too hard on this group. As far as I am concerned, when year two hits they've had a full year to get their shit together and at that point why should I care about their health if they evidently don't care about their own?

You see, even if covid would be as deadly as spanish flu, medicine has improved quite a lot in hundred years. — ssu

Covid pushed the American healthcare system a little beyond its capacity, in some places worse than in others, but everywhere, hospitals converted to focus almost exclusively on covid. There were supply shortages that affected every hospital, but in Texas, for instance, it was insane. Without the lockdowns, there just wouldn't have been any healthcare for a section of the sick population. They probably would have come to the emergency room and died in tents. So there probably wouldn't have been a whole lot of people dead in their front yards, but there would have been some.

What would be good now is to have a frank 'lessons learned' study of this pandemic for the next pandemic. Unfortunately that may be or become too political.

Yet it's obvious how usually the covid-scare went: people didn't know how lethal it would be, hence governments were forced to react someway. It was great to see totally different approaches: Sweden went it's own way and didn't lock down. And Swedes were happy.

Yes, Americans with their high hopes of being so independent and free will have debate long afterwards about this.

It's humorous observing the rewriting of such recent history now that the pandemic has been over for a year and a half.

Unfortunately that may be or become too political. — ssu

I wasn't being political. I work in a hospital. I saw what happened.

Yes, Americans with their high hopes of being so independent and free will have debate long afterwards about this. — ssu

Probably not. Americans don't give a flip.

I wasn't being political. I work in a hospital. I saw what happened. — frank

So has your hospital learnt as an organization something when the next lethal pandemic hits?

I fear that health care sector is usually just barely coping with the 'normal' and thus the organizations give no real effort to plan for real emergencies outside of the normal. Basic reason for this is the lack of money for this, of course, but I think there isn't much mental effort for preparing for something that could hit next year or 50 years from now.

When covid hit Finland, the only government department that didn't cry for help was the Border Guard: suddenly when asked to close the Swedish border (which has basically border controls since the 1950's), the reply was "No problem, we have a plan for this!" and hundreds of border guards moved hundreds of kilometers from their homes. Similarly when the army was called to quarantine the Capital region and the Uusimaa district from the rest of the country, in no time were conscripts manning traffic stops on small roads and trying to keep warm.

The health care sector simply isn't organized like this. Usually made up of either private enterprises or controlled by municipal authorities there doesn't exist a centralized command that a nation would need.