What's the proof that convinced you? — TheMadFool

For me, the primary proof is the materialist view, that at the bottom of things are inanimate subatomic particles going about their business, strictly adhering to laws of physics, determining where each particle goes from moment to moment. Quantum physics, at best, introduces randomness into the situation, but not free-will control of the particles movements. Higher level determinist arguments utilizing psychology or brain science do not conflict with subatomic view, and do themselves point independently to hard determinism, but its the materialist view upon which I rest my hat.

If you are truly a hard determinist, I do not see what the problem would be. Whatever happens was destined (determined), fated to happen you do not really have any real control anyway so why struggle with it. The fact that you are struggling implies you do not really believe it, and I applaud you for that. — prothero

So there isn't a problem, yet you applaud that Brook Norton is struggling with a problem that you say doesn't exist?

Hard determinism is a useless philosophy except as an excuse for accepting any and everything that happens. — prothero

It seems to me that accepting some philosophy is simply accepting the facts of that philosophy, free-will or not.

Hard determinism is simply a way of thinking that you can only be you and you can only behave like you would behave in any given situation given the same information. It is the reflection on what how you behaved, as if you could have behaved differently, that complicates things.

It's not exactly materialism that leads to determinism. If the mind were immaterial and it turns out even the immaterial conforms to laws of its own then free will wouldn't exist.

I am not a hard determinist which I why I applaud his having trouble with the concept.

:yikes:

Are you familiar with the concept of belief in belief?

If this was any other topic, I'd say you asking the question is a performative contradiction, and that it implies you don't actually believe in hard determinism. Perhaps you believe that you believe, but the belief doesn't actually inform your view of the world.

Of course this topic is tricky, because the distinction is between your view of the world and your view of yourself. I suspect you have no problem viewing the world, that is everything external to you, as deterministic. But viewing yourself, the observer, as deterministic seems to be a contradiction. If you are deterministic, then "you" don't exist.

You could consider that, as an observer, you are the cause of there being a world you see in the first place, and therefore whatever applies to your world need not apply to you. Though the question would be whether that is still hard determinism.

Have some physics, chaps.

https://aeon.co/essays/can-retrocausality-solve-the-puzzle-of-action-at-a-distance

Having gone through a journey of discovery, I find I have firmly landed as a hard determinist. But I am having a heck of a time finding any writing that addressed how we should live our mental lives as a hard determinist. I have a lot of ideas on the topic but was hoping not to have to try to reinvent the wheel. My moderate search over the last few months has only turned up a few paragraphs that directly address this problem. I'm hoping to find a writing on how to view justice, personal motivation, and the like, for a hard determinist. Anybody know of such a how-to writing?? — Brook Norton

Compatibilism and related approaches (e.g. some strains of libertarianism) deal with these questions as axiological issues that are largely decoupled from physics. I know that you said that you reject compatibilism, but that is owing to your peculiar definition of free will that reduces it to physics. We do not need to get sidetracked by terminological disputes. If you want answers to the questions that you ask in the OP, then don't change the subject - think about those questions. What do they have to do with physics? On the face of it - nothing. You jump from one to the other too hastily; I don't think you quite thought it through.

Having gone through a journey of discovery, I find I have firmly landed as a hard determinist. But I am having a heck of a time finding any writing that addressed how we should live our mental lives as a hard determinist. I have a lot of ideas on the topic but was hoping not to have to try to reinvent the wheel. My moderate search over the last few months has only turned up a few paragraphs that directly address this problem. I'm hoping to find a writing on how to view justice, personal motivation, and the like, for a hard determinist. Anybody know of such a how-to writing??

Please note, I'm brand new here, having joined just a few minutes ago, so please forgive any formatting gaffs.

Thank you.

As for your difficulty living as a hard determinist, keep in mind that any problem you may have is/was inevitable, and there is no such thing as choosing to make it better. That said, let me offer a few insights that may register and help out.

Although there's no such thing as free will, from what I've seen of like-minded folk we all eventually come to live with the illusion and act accordingly. We can't do otherwise. As a hard determinist myself, long ago I was persuaded to give up trying to focus on the inevitability of my actions and those of others. It led nowhere and was obviously a fruitless pursuit. So while intellectually aware that I never choose to do anything, I put this realization in the closet (I do take it out when discussing free will) and live the illusion---of course I have no choice in the matter. And living the illusion means accepting the injustice of holding people personally responsible for some of the hurtful and harmful things they do. Of course this also makes praise a pretty hollow concept as well, but that's simply the other side of the coin. What does save a person living such a two-faced existence is the surprise of the unexpected. None of us knows what's around the corner. So with this plus an acceptance of the illusion---putting the truth of determinism in the closet---life ain't all that bad.

I praise and blame just like a dyed-in-the-wool free willer, I can't do any differently.