Three strikes and you are out. — Baseball
Here we go again. Another Western European crying about how things are in America, when the country they live in is less diverse and has more whites in positions of privilege percentage-wise than the country they are whining about. What are you doing to fight white privilege in your own country, Benkei?So within a week from each other a yearbook was cancelled because it had an article about BLM but not its "opposing" views, blue lives matter and all lives matter and in Florida critical race theory was prohibited in school.
These are the same people who cry "cancel culture" every other day right? :chin: — Benkei
How is All Lives Matter an opposing view to BLM? — Harry Hindu
Causal mechanisms take more time to explain, — Xanatos
They said BLM because blacks are an oppressed minority. Once whites become a minority, are enslaved, have all their property stripped away from them, their families torn apart, a war fought to free them, their former owners reinstated to their black privilege after the war, are subjected to Chad Crow, lynching's, burnings, beatings, ghettos, voter suppression, white-on-white violence due to lack of opportunity brought on by black privilege, then we can talk about WLM. — James Riley
Alright so how do you want us to convey this truth to our nation's students? — BitconnectCarlos
You want all those newly-anointed poor black victims to be thinking "never forgive, never forget." — BitconnectCarlos
You want to build up a people? Maybe focus on the ways that they've succeeded. — BitconnectCarlos
We can teach them the facts of atrocities, sure, but the teaching of history is never "just the facts." — BitconnectCarlos
You mean like the Jews? — James Riley
Look, the black victims are not "newly-anointed." — James Riley
And they don't need to be told what to think. — James Riley
We don't need to teach "them." — James Riley
The central lesson of Jewish history and the cultural message should never be taught as "never forgive, never forget" and if you think that's how Jews teach their own history then you're clueless (I am speaking as someone who went through a considerable Jewish education.) — BitconnectCarlos
But black people aren't just black. Is that all they are? A victimized skin color? Are they right to declare themselves -- as complex persons -- victims?
— BitconnectCarlos
Is that how it works -- if there's one aspect of me that's victimized do I get to declare myself a victim and say "never forgive, never forget" to all those evil oppressors? — BitconnectCarlos
You're the one telling them to think of themselves as victims. — BitconnectCarlos
Our public schools do. Unless you just want separate black education. — BitconnectCarlos
And, whether they agree with it or not, I think it's a good idea. — James Riley
Whatever they are is not for you to say. The question is, what are you? Are you a victimized skin color for feeling put-upon by those who support black push-back? — James Riley
Our public schools should, but don't. Were you taught about the recently-in-the-new Oklahoma massacre? I wasn't. — James Riley
Sure - don't forget, but also don't base your whole mentality around it. — BitconnectCarlos
The Nazi hunters are all dead now and last one died out around a decade ago, it's just not a thing anymore in the Jewish community. — BitconnectCarlos
Do we never forgive the German people? Seriously? — BitconnectCarlos
I was speaking to you as a person - a person who is a collection of traits - and I was asking you if one victimized trait makes one a victim. — BitconnectCarlos
I've never really felt put-upon by those supporting the black push-back but if they were to get very pushy and aggressive about it I would be annoyed. — BitconnectCarlos
I would tell them that BLM is not my fight. I have my own fight as I'm part of a non-profit that pushes for disability rights. Even if I did join I'd just be another clueless white person marching for something they'll never understand. — BitconnectCarlos
Of course I want history taught honestly, but a history that presents America as being racist to the bone without any hope for black success outside of sports or entertaining is a really chilling cultural message to send. I think we can do better for our young people. Do you see how beliefs like that lead to toxic behavior? I'd certainly be toxic if that's what I was taught to me about how my people are treated in this nation. Violence becomes rational. — BitconnectCarlos
"Blacks were victimized and white people in Oklahoma did horrible things." - Fine, that's true. — BitconnectCarlos
"Black economic success is worthless because whites just tore it down" -- incredibly destructive message. Child abuse. — BitconnectCarlos
Where you deep in the heart of the conservative south when you learned all about that in public schools? Down south? Asking for myself. — James Riley
First, the Germans have done an outstanding job of educating themselves about their history and what their forefathers did. They don't sweep it under the rug like many (not all) whites do about slavery, Indians, etc. But let's not play "favorites" with the Holocaust. Many other horrors were perpetrated on this Earth that did not involve Jews. Blacks have suffered some of it. Let's go deep in the heart of Dixie and set up half of what the Germans have set up regarding the holocaust, deep in the heart of Germany, where it happened. — James Riley
Hmmm. I was getting a paternal vibe about what we should be teaching in school or encouraging blacks to focus on. — James Riley
The intercession is NOT some white bread MFr coming in with a bunch of BS about bootstraps and hard work, and suits and ties and hair cuts and whatnot. It's more along the lines of what was done to make the Jewish state a success. — James Riley
And yet you are out trying to get the abled to be concerned about the rights of the disabled? Should I just be clueless about the ADA and tell those folks they need to tone it down before I get annoyed? Why don't you just focus on their anecdotal economic success stories? — James Riley
You also keep accusing me of straw-manning you but I've never claimed to know or understand your exact positions so I wish you'd stop doing that. — BitconnectCarlos
if I was being educated in these countries and they were negligent or unwilling to talk about this topic I would definitely be frustrated. — BitconnectCarlos
If I had to guess, I'd say the reason whites aren't crazy about engaging on slavery is that a good chunk of them have no ancestral tie in with the institution. — BitconnectCarlos
We did spend a long time on slavery on my US history class though, but I have no idea how this topic is handled down South. — BitconnectCarlos
However, if we bring critical race theory into public schools it becomes my issue because it's now being pushed by the state. From the way you're describing it though, it almost seems like it's a branding issue - call it something else, not critical race theory. — BitconnectCarlos
And we do focus on anecdotal economic success stories because people need role models. — BitconnectCarlos
I don't expect to wake up one day and have stigma & prejudice just disappear. It'll always be there; oppression will always be there, but I am not defined by it nor am I helpless in facing it. If someone makes a stupid comment towards my condition I'll educate them, but I'll react to it like I'm talking to small, dumb child. — BitconnectCarlos
Teach about oppression all you want; it's certainly out there in the world - it's a fact. It's entirely about you handle it and move forward. — BitconnectCarlos
I dare say that if you were a member of the class of victim of the atrocities you would be way more than "frustrated." You might be down right scared! And understandably so. Imagine being black in a country when the enemy flag is still paraded around like an icon, and statues all over the fucking place. How would Jews feel if statues of Hitler, Goebbels (sp?), et al were up in places of government and prominence, along with swastikas and whatnot? Maybe not in Massachusetts, but Massachusetts ain't America. — James Riley
That's a straw man, when someone says "X" and you say they are saying "X+1" you have set up a position for them that they did not set forth and a very easy one to knock down when no one in their right mind has said "X + 1". — James Riley
That's because they don't want to admit they stand atop a pile of bones. Anyone familiar with finances and the compounding of money should understand the same principle applies to economic and cultural advantage. And the compounding also works the other direction, putting the debtor further in the hole. — James Riley
As long as those role models are pre- approved by us and the economic system in which we operate? "Look boy, if you do as we tell you, then you can be like Bob over here. Look at all the money he's got, and the house and car and boat. Why, if you're good enough, and you mind your p's and q's, they'll let you in the Country Club and you too can hob knob with the important folk. We're progressive now, don't you know? Just don't go gettin' uppity, now, ya hear?" — James Riley
We could have said that to the Jews: "Life's a bitch, sorry, but no state and no money. Keep wandering and maybe you'll learn to be like your tormentors some day. You could start by not being who you are. Yeah, that's the ticket."
Sarcasm off. — James Riley
You lost me. Critical race theory? What? The way I'm describing what? — James Riley
Getting angry or enraged about their lack of education doesn't solve anything. If anything it could be counter-productive because now I'm seen as unstable. — BitconnectCarlos
The reason I bring up these points is because I do know people who think/believe this way and I like to know right off the bat whether I'm dealing with one. — BitconnectCarlos
Civilization stands atop a pile of bones. — BitconnectCarlos
I understand that people can frame success in condescending ways, but I know you're able to look past the tone to see the deeper truth here. — BitconnectCarlos
The world will do as it does; the Jewish people strive toward their goal regardless. Sure the UN + Britain helped with the creation of the state, but Israel is always ultimately defended by Israelis, not Americans or Brits. — BitconnectCarlos
CRT is the news of the day here. It brought race back into the limelight recently. — BitconnectCarlos
h, the idiot speaks again by calling anti-racism racism. That skit is getting old. — Benkei
They are not an oppressed minority when they have held the reigns of power in the very system that is defined as being systemically racist.Because it's a tone-deaf dog whistle used by morons who couldn't read a room if their lives depended on it. No one said only BLM. They said BLM. They said BLM because blacks are an oppressed minority. Once whites become a minority, are enslaved, have all their property stripped away from them, their families torn apart, a war fought to free them, their former owners reinstated to their black privilege after the war, are subjected to Chad Crow, lynching's, burnings, beatings, ghettos, voter suppression, white-on-white violence due to lack of opportunity brought on by black privilege, then we can talk about WLM. But in the mean time, to paraphrase a meme, you don't walk across the street and interrupt the fire fighters while they are fighting a fire in your neighbor's house and say "Hey, what about my house? All houses matter!" — James Riley
It's that the some lives' message is that everyone that is white, or wears a cop uniform is racist. It's an accusation that all whites are racist and need to be told that black lives matter, when it is already assumed by most that all lives matter. If all lives matter is already assumed to be the case, then why even say, some lives matter? You're simply assuming that because some whites are racist, they all are. THAT is racism in a nutshell.All lives may matter but only an idiot would say that in the midst of a conversation about some lives. That's how "All Lives Matter" is an opposing view to BLM. It's a dummy interrupting a conversation with an irrelevant truth. "BLM!" "Really? How about them Broncos! Did you see that rain last night?" — James Riley
They are not an oppressed minority when they have held the reigns of power in the very system that is defined as being systemically racist. — Harry Hindu
what about — Harry Hindu
You speak as if whites are the only race in the world that has never experienced oppression in history. Your whole speal just reaks of a lack of perspective. — Harry Hindu
It's that the some lives' message is that everyone that is white, or wears a cop uniform is racist. — Harry Hindu
If all lives matter is already assumed to be the case, then why even say, some lives matter? — Harry Hindu
You're simply assuming that because some whites are racist, they all are. THAT is racism in a nutshell. — Harry Hindu
Ah. More ad hominems. That skit is getting old. — Harry Hindu
True. I wasn't suggesting you'd get angry or enraged. I was suggesting that you might be afraid. Very afraid. Now, if you had nothing to be afraid of, then they might be open to education. Failing that is when frustration and anger kick in. But here you are, the minority, trying to do the heavy lifting for them. I think you, in that case, and blacks here at home, in our case, shouldn't necessarily have to shoulder the burden of schooling their oppressors. The oppressors have a lot of work to do themselves, and the "enlightened" or "woke" members of their own should pitch in. — James Riley
I can understand that. However, going to the extreme is not unlike a racist running to the "black welfare queen in Chicago" or pointing out the few looters in an otherwise peaceful protest or saying "All lives matter!" in response to a BLM statement. It's all a distraction from the merits of issue under discussion. It also ignores the casual mechanics of what got us here in an undesirable situation, and it is part of what keeps us here. — James Riley
It was a whole lot more than set up. It's billions of dollars every freaking year. — James Riley
the playing field is not level — James Riley
The way you formulated the issue made it sound as if I was the one who brought it up and was pushing it. — James Riley
I'm sure CRT meant one thing to one "side" and another to the other. — James Riley
I hate to say it, but it is ultimately on the oppressed because the oppressed understand their own problems and situation better than the rest of the world. Even if allies try to connect and reach out, this is an interest or a hobby (maybe a job?) for us when it's your life. Allies certainly have some role to play and they can help, but it's not a leading one. I would feel intimidated teaching or lecturing on racism to other white people, but hats off to allies who make a genuine effort. — BitconnectCarlos
I'm just always on the look-out. — BitconnectCarlos
It's not like Israel needs American foreign aid dollars to survive. — BitconnectCarlos
The playing field isn't level and never will be. — BitconnectCarlos
I didn't know you were black when I engaged you. — BitconnectCarlos
I'm not black. — James Riley
I don't know what to make of your response to my post. I have been arguing the exact opposite of having anyone in the non-oppressed community trying to "connect and reach out" to anyone in the oppressed community. I'm talking about those in the oppressor community reaching out to the oppressors and trying to work with them. In other words, "woke" whites should be schooling other "non-woke" whites. — James Riley
It would be level, or a whole lot leveler if we would have, after the Civil War, dealt with the enemy in this way: All former slave-owning properties were given to former slaves; All children of former slave-owners were taken from their families and removed to a school in Carlisle, PA for re-education; All wives and old men of former slave-owners were shipped off to distant Reservations to become dependent wards of the government; All former slave-owning men were forced into indentured servitude under their former slaves for a period of years; All proven sympathizers of slavery and/or former slave-owners were subject to the same treatment; All those who resisted were hung or shot. — James Riley
In order for this to happen white allies need to take direction from black communities. We absolutely need this coordination to happen before whites go out and do this type of work. Whites are not to be operating independently. — BitconnectCarlos
This is unjust. Justice must occur on an individual level - children of slaveholders are not guilty and should not be stripped from their parents. No more breaking apart families. Two wrongs don't make a right. Justice cannot be carried out on a group level like that. I can't tell where you're getting your idea of justice from. — BitconnectCarlos
Hilarious. Go back and look at my reply and you will see that there are no ad hominems - only questioning your crazy assertions. But that is expected from you - that any questioning of your assertions is a personal attack because you are deeply emotionally invested in your assertions. Why, Benkei, are you so emotionally invested in diversity in America when your own country lacks the diversity that exists in America? Keep posting your unfounded claims about race relations in America (where you don't live) and I will be there to personally attack you with questions. :roll:It's not an ad hominem if it's a statement of fact. Your reply, as usual, was a misrepresentation of what I said and a personal attack as well. It, like your latest, doesn't deserve my time because arguing with an idiot etc. Etc. — Benkei
Blah, blah blah. In other words anything that is said that contradicts your assumptions just isn't true and you don't have to prove it. What does systemic racism look like in America? What would the absence of systemic racism look like in America if not an elected black person as President? Sounds like there is no end to systemic racism so what is the point?BS. They are an oppressed minority regardless of any lies the majority tells itself about those they oppress, and regardless of any anecdote (Obama?) they can point to. — James Riley
Wait...what? They aren't saying that all whites are racist, but you are? Who is "they" and why are you contradicting them? Which is it? Are we all racists or not? Are you a racist? If so, why should we be listening to you? What have you done to offset your racism?They aren't saying all whites are racists any more than they are saying all blacks are racists. Sure, everyone is racist, even if subliminally, blacks included, — James Riley
But you said everyone is a racist, including blacks. If you are claiming that even blacks are racist, then BLM is racist! You whole post is riddled with contradictions and you're telling me to stay focused? Puh-leeeze.When you ASSume you are making an ass or yourself, not me. I never said or even implied "that because some whites are racist, they all are." It's just the racists themselves, and their enablers, who want to move on without having done the hard work. The first step is to admit you have a problem, Harry. Then and only then can the hard work begin. All whites benefit from systemic racism, even those who are not racists. — James Riley
This is like asking if I deny the existence of god without having defined god. What consequences and vestiges are you taking about? Surely these consequences existed for 40-50 years after the Civil War, but 150-160 years after the Civil War? How long do the consequences of any racism in the history of the world last? At what point in history did the consequences and vestiges of white oppression in human history cease to exist? At what point does the consequences of what the Germans did to the Jews cease to exist?Are you denying the current consequences and vestiges leftover from the days of American slavery? — creativesoul
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