"Although people generally won't say it, when they are presented with evidence of an unfair society in terms of ratios, they will internally fall back on the conventionally unspeakable explanations of "superior" culture and genetics. Causal mechanisms take more time to explain, but will work better at changing minds. African Americans performing worse economically being the result of "cultural deficits," is an essential Republican talking point now, and "biological explanations," have been allowed to make a comeback, I'd argue, because discussing what we actually know about them has become fraught even in the academy."

For what it's worth, I think that a left-wing "race realist" who supports a generous social safety net and opposes racial discrimination has a more compassionate position on this issue than a colorblind conservative who believes that certain groups underperform as a result of their own moral defects *that they are personally capable of changing* as opposed to as a result of factors that are truly out of their own control.

"This isn't "some prosecutors do it," the plea system is an integral part of how the US justice system works at a basic level."

Does it operate significantly differently in other developed countries?

Yes. Other developed countries don't allow the sort of massive sentences for low level crimes that prosecutors rely on to get pleas in most cases.

Hence the US having 25% of the world's prison population but only 4% of the population. The US abandoned a trial system of justice and the results speak for themselves.



If 96.4% of criminal cases ending in pleas sounds like a justice system that is too good to be true and is rigging its system and punishing citizens harshly for exercising their right to a trial, you would be correct.

Back in 1945 less than 70% of cases ended with pleas. We essentially abolished trials.

So within a week from each other a yearbook was cancelled because it had an article about BLM but not its "opposing" views, blue lives matter and all lives matter and in Florida critical race theory was prohibited in school.

These are the same people who cry "cancel culture" every other day right? :chin:

I'm sure there's someone who must've already discovered this particularly interesting truth - its veracity, however, is cast into doubt by the existing racist culture that all cultures, unfortunately, exhibit to varying degrees, either in subtle forms or overtly on occasion.

This "...interesting truth..." I refer to can be understood in terms of the so-called Three-Strikes Law

Three strikes and you are out. — Baseball

The rationale is not so clear but here I'll offer my own for criticism.

1. First offense: An honest mistake. Forgiven!
2. Second offense: Circumstances were such that committing the offense couldn't be avoided. Forgiven!
3. Third offense: Assume as deliberate, wilfull violation of an ethical code. Not forgiven!

Can we somehow, is it reasonable, to give racism a second look in the context of the Three-Strikes law? Is this humanity's third strike? If it isn't there's still hope, right? People would let the centuries of slavery and racist ideologies slide because, let's face it, we didn't know any better. If the current racism phenomenon is the "third strike", we really need to do something about it, and pronto! After all, every possible reason to excuse it (strikes one and two) is no longer a valid one. :chin:

I'll probably regret making this post! :sad:

So within a week from each other a yearbook was cancelled because it had an article about BLM but not its "opposing" views, blue lives matter and all lives matter and in Florida critical race theory was prohibited in school.

These are the same people who cry "cancel culture" every other day right? :chin: — Benkei

Here we go again. Another Western European crying about how things are in America, when the country they live in is less diverse and has more whites in positions of privilege percentage-wise than the country they are whining about. What are you doing to fight white privilege in your own country, Benkei?

How is All Lives Matter an opposing view to BLM? It includes the idea that black lives matter, not opposing it, but doesn't make a distinction about race or skin color, like racists do.

Funny how BLM got all bent out of shape when others asserted that All Lives Matter, but when Asian Lives Matter and Jewish Lives Matter started, no one said a word. So it turns out that not only black lives matter, but others do as well. Leaving out certain people because of the color of their skin, as if their lives don't matter, is racist, period. It's the very idea that BLM is supposedly fighting against. It's fighting racism with racism.

How is All Lives Matter an opposing view to BLM? — Harry Hindu

Because it's a tone-deaf dog whistle used by morons who couldn't read a room if their lives depended on it. No one said only BLM. They said BLM. They said BLM because blacks are an oppressed minority. Once whites become a minority, are enslaved, have all their property stripped away from them, their families torn apart, a war fought to free them, their former owners reinstated to their black privilege after the war, are subjected to Chad Crow, lynching's, burnings, beatings, ghettos, voter suppression, white-on-white violence due to lack of opportunity brought on by black privilege, then we can talk about WLM. But in the mean time, to paraphrase a meme, you don't walk across the street and interrupt the fire fighters while they are fighting a fire in your neighbor's house and say "Hey, what about my house? All houses matter!"

All lives may matter but only an idiot would say that in the midst of a conversation about some lives. That's how "All Lives Matter" is an opposing view to BLM. It's a dummy interrupting a conversation with an irrelevant truth. "BLM!" "Really? How about them Broncos! Did you see that rain last night?"

ah, the idiot speaks again by calling anti-racism racism. That skit is getting old.

Causal mechanisms take more time to explain, — Xanatos

They not only take more time to explain, but it's a hard row to hoe when those your are trying to explain it to don't want to hear it (truth is inconvenient) or are too stupid to understand it.

:100: :100: Two hundred percent!!

They said BLM because blacks are an oppressed minority. Once whites become a minority, are enslaved, have all their property stripped away from them, their families torn apart, a war fought to free them, their former owners reinstated to their black privilege after the war, are subjected to Chad Crow, lynching's, burnings, beatings, ghettos, voter suppression, white-on-white violence due to lack of opportunity brought on by black privilege, then we can talk about WLM. — James Riley

Alright so how do you want us to convey this truth to our nation's students? You want all those newly-anointed poor black victims to be thinking "never forgive, never forget." You want to build up a people? Maybe focus on the ways that they've succeeded.

We can teach them the facts of atrocities, sure, but the teaching of history is never "just the facts."

Alright so how do you want us to convey this truth to our nation's students? — BitconnectCarlos

We teach history, not with stupid statues venerating the enemy, but by telling them of the horrors inflicted upon the bones under the very feet they stand on.

You want all those newly-anointed poor black victims to be thinking "never forgive, never forget." — BitconnectCarlos

You mean like the Jews? Look, the black victims are not "newly-anointed." And they don't need to be told what to think. They know, better than anyone. What they need is a level playing field. And don't tell me you can kick a man for ever, stop kicking, let him get up and have access to what you have and there you have it, a level playing field. That's more BS perpetrators trying to let themselves off the hook. "Oh, let's move on! Let bygones be bygones. We're all good now, right?" Tale about white privilage.

You want to build up a people? Maybe focus on the ways that they've succeeded. — BitconnectCarlos

You mean like the Jews having been given a state, and umpteen billion dollars and then making something of themselves? Sounds good. Let's start with that. Then we can focus on how blacks succeed without cherry picking anecdotes like Herman Cain and whoever that brain surgeon is.

We can teach them the facts of atrocities, sure, but the teaching of history is never "just the facts." — BitconnectCarlos

We don't need to teach "them." We need to teach our selves. But "we" find many facts "inconvenient" and uncomfortable.

You mean like the Jews? — James Riley

The central lesson of Jewish history and the cultural message should never be taught as "never forgive, never forget" and if you think that's how Jews teach their own history then you're clueless (I am speaking as someone who went through a considerable Jewish education.)

Look, the black victims are not "newly-anointed." — James Riley

But black people aren't just black. Is that all they are? A victimized skin color? Are they right to declare themselves -- as complex persons -- victims? Is that how it works -- if there's one aspect of me that's victimized do I get to declare myself a victim and say "never forgive, never forget" to all those evil oppressors?

And they don't need to be told what to think. — James Riley

You're the one telling them to think of themselves as victims.

We don't need to teach "them." — James Riley

Our public schools do. Unless you just want separate black education.

The central lesson of Jewish history and the cultural message should never be taught as "never forgive, never forget" and if you think that's how Jews teach their own history then you're clueless (I am speaking as someone who went through a considerable Jewish education.) — BitconnectCarlos

Maybe they are all about forgiveness, but I often hear their statement "never forget." And, whether they agree with it or not, I think it's a good idea. Those who forget the past are bound to repeat it. If we don't make perps pay, they will gladly forget it. By the way, how many Jews failed to forgive the Nazi POS that murdered Jews? I think they are still hunting them down now. Why not just forgive?

But black people aren't just black. Is that all they are? A victimized skin color? Are they right to declare themselves -- as complex persons -- victims?
— BitconnectCarlos

Whatever they are is not for you to say. The question is, what are you? Are you a victimized skin color for feeling put-upon by those who support black push-back?

Is that how it works -- if there's one aspect of me that's victimized do I get to declare myself a victim and say "never forgive, never forget" to all those evil oppressors? — BitconnectCarlos

That seems to be the way a lot of the majority feel about it. They declare themselves victims of the evil left, put-upon for their privilege, the theft of their Christmas, the "woe is me commies are commie to hold me accountable for the sins of my fathers blah blah blah, whine, whine whine." Why don't they man up, take a seat already. Broaden their shoulders and try pulling their brother up instead of bitching all the time about "teach a man to fish" etc.

You're the one telling them to think of themselves as victims. — BitconnectCarlos

I'm not telling them shit. I'm trying to get my own to quit being little babies.

Our public schools do. Unless you just want separate black education. — BitconnectCarlos

Our public schools should, but don't. Were you taught about the recently-in-the-new Oklahoma massacre? I wasn't. Now that it's finally working it's way into the news we have a bunch of conservatives whining about the "re-writing" of history. Jeesh! STFU already. Our founding fathers came up with public education but boy is that a drag for the right. They are afraid of the truth and love their alternative facts.

And, whether they agree with it or not, I think it's a good idea. — James Riley

Sure - don't forget, but also don't base your whole mentality around it. The Nazi hunters are all dead now and last one died out around a decade ago, it's just not a thing anymore in the Jewish community. I don't remember the last time I heard it mentioned. We should "never forget" events like the Holocaust because there are important lessons in it apart from the incredibly obvious "they went after the Jews!" There's really so many other important lessons about humanity revealed in studies of the Holocaust. There's definitely a strand of the "never forgive, never forget" attitude in Judaism but I would regard it as toxic. Do we never forgive the German people? Seriously?

Whatever they are is not for you to say. The question is, what are you? Are you a victimized skin color for feeling put-upon by those who support black push-back? — James Riley

You're right that it is not my place to tell black people what they "are." I was speaking to you as a person - a person who is a collection of traits - and I was asking you if one victimized trait makes one a victim.

I don't consider myself a victimized skin color. I've had very little to say about BLM. I've never really felt put-upon by those supporting the black push-back but if they were to get very pushy and aggressive about it I would be annoyed.

I would tell them that BLM is not my fight. I have my own fight as I'm part of a non-profit that pushes for disability rights. Even if I did join I'd just be another clueless white person marching for something they'll never understand.

Of course I want history taught honestly, but a history that presents America as being racist to the bone without any hope for black success outside of sports or entertaining is a really chilling cultural message to send. I think we can do better for our young people. Do you see how beliefs like that lead to toxic behavior? I'd certainly be toxic if that's what I was taught to me about how my people are treated in this nation. Violence becomes rational.

Our public schools should, but don't. Were you taught about the recently-in-the-new Oklahoma massacre? I wasn't. — James Riley

I've known about the Oklahoma massacre for years because I love history, but it's been 13 or so years since I've been in a history classroom so my memory isn't too clear. We were certainly taught about slavery, how blacks were treated under Reconstruction, the Civil Rights movement, and other topics but certainly if schools aren't teaching this then that's a problem. In regard to the massacre, it's about how you present it though. "Blacks were victimized and white people in Oklahoma did horrible things." - Fine, that's true. "Black economic success is worthless because whites just tore it down" -- incredibly destructive message. Child abuse.

Sure - don't forget, but also don't base your whole mentality around it. — BitconnectCarlos

Straw man. Nobody is saying to base their whole mentality around anything. But in might make you feel like they are because, well, I don't know, BitconnectCarlos: Why do you feel blacks whole mentality is something? Maybe "against you"? Do you feel they are all against you? Or is it their liberal champions? Are they all out to get you?

The Nazi hunters are all dead now and last one died out around a decade ago, it's just not a thing anymore in the Jewish community. — BitconnectCarlos

Yeah, I guess there was no Jewish influence behind this: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/wwii-nazi-concentration-camp-guard-removed-germany Probably just a bunch of WASPS or blacks in the Justice Dept. doing their duty.

Do we never forgive the German people? Seriously? — BitconnectCarlos

First, the Germans have done an outstanding job of educating themselves about their history and what their forefathers did. They don't sweep it under the rug like many (not all) whites do about slavery, Indians, etc. But let's not play "favorites" with the Holocaust. Many other horrors were perpetrated on this Earth that did not involve Jews. Blacks have suffered some of it. Let's go deep in the heart of Dixie and set up half of what the Germans have set up regarding the holocaust, deep in the heart of Germany, where it happened.

I was speaking to you as a person - a person who is a collection of traits - and I was asking you if one victimized trait makes one a victim. — BitconnectCarlos

Hmmm. I was getting a paternal vibe about what we should be teaching in school or encouraging blacks to focus on. You know, like their successes that occurred in spite of, and not as a result of your way of thinking. Because, you know, you pulled yourself up by your own bootstraps and so should they.

I've never really felt put-upon by those supporting the black push-back but if they were to get very pushy and aggressive about it I would be annoyed. — BitconnectCarlos

Wait, let me get out my violin.

I would tell them that BLM is not my fight. I have my own fight as I'm part of a non-profit that pushes for disability rights. Even if I did join I'd just be another clueless white person marching for something they'll never understand. — BitconnectCarlos

And yet you are out trying to get the abled to be concerned about the rights of the disabled? Should I just be clueless about the ADA and tell those folks they need to tone it down before I get annoyed? Why don't you just focus on their anecdotal economic success stories?

Of course I want history taught honestly, but a history that presents America as being racist to the bone without any hope for black success outside of sports or entertaining is a really chilling cultural message to send. I think we can do better for our young people. Do you see how beliefs like that lead to toxic behavior? I'd certainly be toxic if that's what I was taught to me about how my people are treated in this nation. Violence becomes rational. — BitconnectCarlos

Another straw man. Teaching history honestly that presents America's racism is NOT teaching that America is racist to the bone. There's that old slippery slope hyperbole BS again. You don't like what you hear so you extrapolate to worst case scenario that is not even on the table. That's why folks like me would have you just take a seat. You already said you don't have a dog in this fight. You can't see systemic racism? Fine, neither can half the blind people in this country. The mere teaching of history is offensive because, well, it must mean something "to the bone" or whatever. Jeesh!

I see how your reasoning leads to toxic behavior. You forget, "they" are not the ones who need to be taught about how our ancestors treated theirs. They know. It's US that needs to teach US about how our ancestors treated theirs. The toxicity comes from living in a country full of white privileged assholes who think systemic racism does not exist because they have not been taught about, or can't understand, or don't want to hear about causal mechanisms (tip o' the hat to Xanatos). Study causal mechanisms and you'll see it has to do with way more than slavery. There is extensive fall out.

Try applying a simple white familial example: Wife beating. Or racism. Through the generations. Someone, sometime, somewhere has to break the chain, we hope. But if some life event does not intercede, the damage can continue and compound, from generation to generation. What would make the inner-city ghetto life any different? The intercession is NOT some white bread MFr coming in with a bunch of BS about bootstraps and hard work, and suits and ties and hair cuts and whatnot. It's more along the lines of what was done to make the Jewish state a success.

"Blacks were victimized and white people in Oklahoma did horrible things." - Fine, that's true. — BitconnectCarlos

Germans killed some Jews. Fine, that's true.

"Black economic success is worthless because whites just tore it down" -- incredibly destructive message. Child abuse. — BitconnectCarlos

Yeah, where is that being taught? On the contrary, I remember being taught about black success that occurred in spite of, and not because of systemic racism.

And as to your studies of history, where did you go to school? And when did you learn that stuff? Did it start in grade school? You know, when the "American exceptionalism" has started to be pounded into the little skulls? Or later, in college? Where you deep in the heart of the conservative south when you learned all about that in public schools? Down south? Asking for myself.

Alright, well here we go.

Where you deep in the heart of the conservative south when you learned all about that in public schools? Down south? Asking for myself. — James Riley

No, I went to school and grew up in an upper-middle class area of Massachusetts in the suburbs. I think they taught us US history in middle and high school. We did do a bit of history in Elementary school as well.

On to the main topic:

In any case, I just want to say if all you're asking for a type of education analogous to holocaust education that seems reasonable. I looked further into that 1919 Oklahoma massacre and it would definitely be interesting to study and understand the roots and causes of the massacre. Between 150-200 blacks were killed which makes it a very significant massacre.

You also keep accusing me of straw-manning you but I've never claimed to know or understand your exact positions so I wish you'd stop doing that. I don't know exactly what you believe. As far as I'm concerned we're not debating now, we're discussing.

First, the Germans have done an outstanding job of educating themselves about their history and what their forefathers did. They don't sweep it under the rug like many (not all) whites do about slavery, Indians, etc. But let's not play "favorites" with the Holocaust. Many other horrors were perpetrated on this Earth that did not involve Jews. Blacks have suffered some of it. Let's go deep in the heart of Dixie and set up half of what the Germans have set up regarding the holocaust, deep in the heart of Germany, where it happened. — James Riley

You bring up a good point here - the Germans did make serious amends over their past and they've got some very good Holocaust education over there. In other countries like Romania, Lithuania, and Latvia this is not the case. To this day I am very suspicious of Latvian and Lithuanian nationalists. I understand, maybe, to an extent -- if I was being educated in these countries and they were negligent or unwilling to talk about this topic I would definitely be frustrated.

If I had to guess, I'd say the reason whites aren't crazy about engaging on slavery is that a good chunk of them have no ancestral tie in with the institution. I have as much in common with you from a cultural/racial standpoint as I have with a Southern Anglo-Saxon or Scotch-Irish person. I share neither their heritage, religion, nor culture. None of my family has lived down South, nor did they even arrive here until the 20th century. We did spend a long time on slavery on my US history class though, but I have no idea how this topic is handled down South.

Hmmm. I was getting a paternal vibe about what we should be teaching in school or encouraging blacks to focus on. — James Riley

I am only commenting about public school teaching here. I am in no position to make any sort of definitive judgments on how blacks ought to perceive themselves or their history - that is their issue. However, if we bring critical race theory into public schools it becomes my issue because it's now being pushed by the state. From the way you're describing it though, it almost seems like it's a branding issue - call it something else, not critical race theory.

The intercession is NOT some white bread MFr coming in with a bunch of BS about bootstraps and hard work, and suits and ties and hair cuts and whatnot. It's more along the lines of what was done to make the Jewish state a success. — James Riley

I like that approach.

And yet you are out trying to get the abled to be concerned about the rights of the disabled? Should I just be clueless about the ADA and tell those folks they need to tone it down before I get annoyed? Why don't you just focus on their anecdotal economic success stories? — James Riley

Honestly, the bulk of what we do is we just help raise money for our cause - which goes directly to disabled people who need financial help with treatment. We do a bit of education but it's not really our main focus. And we do focus on anecdotal economic success stories because people need role models. The ADA rarely gets enforced at least when it comes to the particular disability I focus on, but regardless I don't expect to wake up one day and have stigma & prejudice just disappear. It'll always be there; oppression will always be there, but I am not defined by it nor am I helpless in facing it. If someone makes a stupid comment towards my condition I'll educate them, and I'll react to it like I'm talking to a small, dumb child.

Teach about oppression all you want; it's certainly out there in the world - it's a fact. It's entirely about you handle it and move forward. Kids are impressionable and we need to be careful with this.

EDIT: CRT in schools undermines Enlightment era liberalism and this - to many people, myself included - is something to be very cautious of before doing. I've never heard of Holocaust education faced with this accusation.

fighting racism with racism. — Harry Hindu

[...]As fire drives out fire, so pity pity[...] — Brutus

You also keep accusing me of straw-manning you but I've never claimed to know or understand your exact positions so I wish you'd stop doing that. — BitconnectCarlos

You said "Sure - don't forget, but also don't base your whole mentality around it." Where did you get the idea that anyone anywhere of any consequence to you was basing their whole mentality around anything? That's a straw man, when someone says "X" and you say they are saying "X+1" you have set up a position for them that they did not set forth and a very easy one to knock down when no one in their right mind has said "X + 1".

You also said ". . . a history that presents America as being racist to the bone . . ." No one was saying we should teach that America is racist to the bone. Another argument that is easy to knock down.

if I was being educated in these countries and they were negligent or unwilling to talk about this topic I would definitely be frustrated. — BitconnectCarlos

I dare say that if you were a member of the class of victim of the atrocities you would be way more than "frustrated." You might be down right scared! And understandably so. Imagine being black in a country when the enemy flag is still paraded around like an icon, and statues all over the fucking place. How would Jews feel if statues of Hitler, Goebbels (sp?), et al were up in places of government and prominence, along with swastikas and whatnot? Maybe not in Massachusetts, but Massachusetts ain't America.

If I had to guess, I'd say the reason whites aren't crazy about engaging on slavery is that a good chunk of them have no ancestral tie in with the institution. — BitconnectCarlos

That's because they don't want to admit they stand atop a pile of bones. Anyone familiar with finances and the compounding of money should understand the same principle applies to economic and cultural advantage. And the compounding also works the other direction, putting the debtor further in the hole.

We did spend a long time on slavery on my US history class though, but I have no idea how this topic is handled down South. — BitconnectCarlos

Slave, chains, work, whip, rape, split up, yeah, slavery. That doesn't address the above referenced compounding and the causal mechanism behind today's complaint; i.e. the pile of bones.

However, if we bring critical race theory into public schools it becomes my issue because it's now being pushed by the state. From the way you're describing it though, it almost seems like it's a branding issue - call it something else, not critical race theory. — BitconnectCarlos

You lost me. Critical race theory? What? The way I'm describing what?

And we do focus on anecdotal economic success stories because people need role models. — BitconnectCarlos

As long as those role models are pre- approved by us and the economic system in which we operate? "Look boy, if you do as we tell you, then you can be like Bob over here. Look at all the money he's got, and the house and car and boat. Why, if you're good enough, and you mind your p's and q's, they'll let you in the Country Club and you too can hob knob with the important folk. We're progressive now, don't you know? Just don't go gettin' uppity, now, ya hear?"

I don't expect to wake up one day and have stigma & prejudice just disappear. It'll always be there; oppression will always be there, but I am not defined by it nor am I helpless in facing it. If someone makes a stupid comment towards my condition I'll educate them, but I'll react to it like I'm talking to small, dumb child. — BitconnectCarlos

Again, you seem to be focusing on what "they" think or what "we" should be teaching "them". Forget blacks, forget the Jews, forget the Indians, forget all that, just for a minute. Focus instead on "us". We are the ones with the fucking problem and once we come to terms with it, their life might begin to approach some kind of level playing field. And if the shoe does not fit, then for crying out loud, quit wearing it! If you are not in denial about the pile of bones upon which you stand, and if you are not standing in the way of the education of racists fascist assholes, then step aside and let the state school these jerks. Take a seat. Your just providing aid and comfort to the enemy when you act all put upon. The assholes need the (critical race theory??? don't even know what that really is) education about the compounding interest they are the beneficiaries of, the privilege, and their own contribution to systemic racism. Cool, hip, woke folks like you shouldn't get your panties all up in a knot when folks try to undo the damage done and being done. If the methods seem harsh, just remember, their being on the wrong side of history has it's drawbacks. Acknowledge history, acknowledge how you've benefited from it, and step back while those recalcitrant, denial-ridden, reactionary enemy are dealt with.

Teach about oppression all you want; it's certainly out there in the world - it's a fact. It's entirely about you handle it and move forward. — BitconnectCarlos

We could have said that to the Jews: "Life's a bitch, sorry, but no state and no money. Keep wandering and maybe you'll learn to be like your tormentors some day. You could start by not being who you are. Yeah, that's the ticket."

Sarcasm off.

I dare say that if you were a member of the class of victim of the atrocities you would be way more than "frustrated." You might be down right scared! And understandably so. Imagine being black in a country when the enemy flag is still paraded around like an icon, and statues all over the fucking place. How would Jews feel if statues of Hitler, Goebbels (sp?), et al were up in places of government and prominence, along with swastikas and whatnot? Maybe not in Massachusetts, but Massachusetts ain't America. — James Riley

I am an Eastern European Jew who lost many family members in the Holocaust. I have never been to Romania, Latvia, or Lithuania but let's assume their Holocaust curriculum is lacking. In that case, if I lived there I would do my best to work within the system to change things. I'm a solution-oriented person and I prefer working within the system when possible. Getting angry or enraged about their lack of education doesn't solve anything. If anything it could be counter-productive because now I'm seen as unstable.

I've also lived in 4 different states now -- Texas, Maryland, California and Massachusetts and I'm not going to say what's "really" America and what isn't. They were all very different.

As for the confederate flag, I don't know what to say here. I just don't know or understand southern white culture and how they perceive their heritage or that flag. I would have to do a temperature check on the culture to see how they perceive it, but at the same time I certainly understand why blacks are upset about Confederate monuments and the flag.

That's a straw man, when someone says "X" and you say they are saying "X+1" you have set up a position for them that they did not set forth and a very easy one to knock down when no one in their right mind has said "X + 1". — James Riley

I said this earlier but I'm not attempting to counter your thesis here (because I don't know exactly what you believe.) I'm just throwing out a perspective and seeing whether you agree or disagree with it. As far as I can tell in this discussion we don't have any major disagreements yet.

The reason I bring up these points is because I do know people who think/believe this way and I like to know right off the bat whether I'm dealing with one.

That's because they don't want to admit they stand atop a pile of bones. Anyone familiar with finances and the compounding of money should understand the same principle applies to economic and cultural advantage. And the compounding also works the other direction, putting the debtor further in the hole. — James Riley

Civilization stands atop a pile of bones.

As long as those role models are pre- approved by us and the economic system in which we operate? "Look boy, if you do as we tell you, then you can be like Bob over here. Look at all the money he's got, and the house and car and boat. Why, if you're good enough, and you mind your p's and q's, they'll let you in the Country Club and you too can hob knob with the important folk. We're progressive now, don't you know? Just don't go gettin' uppity, now, ya hear?" — James Riley

Success is success is success, and don't let anyone ever tell you that money doesn't matter. Sure, some people love cars and boats and country clubs, but when you have millions of dollars you have the power to mold the world in the way that you want. You're in a much better place to give back to your community, not to mention you're able to spend your time the way that you want.

I understand that people can frame success in condescending ways, but I know you're able to look past the tone to see the deeper truth here.

We could have said that to the Jews: "Life's a bitch, sorry, but no state and no money. Keep wandering and maybe you'll learn to be like your tormentors some day. You could start by not being who you are. Yeah, that's the ticket."

Sarcasm off. — James Riley

The world will do as it does; the Jewish people strive toward their goal regardless. Sure the UN + Britain helped with the creation of the state, but Israel is always ultimately defended by Israelis, not Americans or Brits.

You lost me. Critical race theory? What? The way I'm describing what? — James Riley

CRT is the news of the day here. It brought race back into the limelight recently.

Getting angry or enraged about their lack of education doesn't solve anything. If anything it could be counter-productive because now I'm seen as unstable. — BitconnectCarlos

True. I wasn't suggesting you'd get angry or enraged. I was suggesting that you might be afraid. Very afraid. Now, if you had nothing to be afraid of, then they might be open to education. Failing that is when frustration and anger kick in. But here you are, the minority, trying to do the heavy lifting for them. I think you, in that case, and blacks here at home, in our case, shouldn't necessarily have to shoulder the burden of schooling their oppressors. The oppressors have a lot of work to do themselves, and the "enlightened" or "woke" members of their own should pitch in.

The reason I bring up these points is because I do know people who think/believe this way and I like to know right off the bat whether I'm dealing with one. — BitconnectCarlos

I can understand that. However, going to the extreme is not unlike a racist running to the "black welfare queen in Chicago" or pointing out the few looters in an otherwise peaceful protest or saying "All lives matter!" in response to a BLM statement. It's all a distraction from the merits of issue under discussion. It also ignores the casual mechanics of what got us here in an undesirable situation, and it is part of what keeps us here.

Civilization stands atop a pile of bones. — BitconnectCarlos

They do. Some of those bones aren't boot-strapping, self-made heroes. Some are victims of evil institutions. If I get your labor for free and rise further above you, passing that down my line and compounding the growth and interest in wealth and education, my progeny might want to take a step back and realize that although they did not personally take your labor for nothing, they certainly benefited from it, the playing field is not level, and the causal mechanics compounded the negative in the opposite direction for your progeny. And our institutions still have remnants of that system embedded within them. It's called "systemic." And until we admit it, it's not going away.

I understand that people can frame success in condescending ways, but I know you're able to look past the tone to see the deeper truth here. — BitconnectCarlos

I get what you are saying. But I find no problem with Indians holding out Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull and Geronimo, et al, as heroes. All while their kids were forced in the the Carlisle Indian School and told who they should emulate and look up to.

The world will do as it does; the Jewish people strive toward their goal regardless. Sure the UN + Britain helped with the creation of the state, but Israel is always ultimately defended by Israelis, not Americans or Brits. — BitconnectCarlos

It was a whole lot more than set up. It's billions of dollars every freaking year.

CRT is the news of the day here. It brought race back into the limelight recently. — BitconnectCarlos

The way you formulated the issue made it sound as if I was the one who brought it up and was pushing it. I'm trying to stand on my own two legs, regardless of what people are calling something these days. The right is too accomplished at distortion for me to want to use phraseology that meant one thing one day and has since been twisted to mean another. Like "liberal" and "capitalism" and "America" and "BLM" and whatnot. I'm sure CRT meant one thing to one "side" and another to the other. Best to avoid getting pulled down some rabbit hole and get cornered by someone else's hyperbolic understanding of what something is/was.

h, the idiot speaks again by calling anti-racism racism. That skit is getting old. — Benkei

Ah. More ad hominems. That skit is getting old.

Stop attacking me and attack my argument. Why are you so concerned with what happens in the U.S. when you have such a lack of diversity in your own backyard? If the more white you are means the more racist and privileged you are, your pale white skin means your're the worst of them. :rofl:

Because it's a tone-deaf dog whistle used by morons who couldn't read a room if their lives depended on it. No one said only BLM. They said BLM. They said BLM because blacks are an oppressed minority. Once whites become a minority, are enslaved, have all their property stripped away from them, their families torn apart, a war fought to free them, their former owners reinstated to their black privilege after the war, are subjected to Chad Crow, lynching's, burnings, beatings, ghettos, voter suppression, white-on-white violence due to lack of opportunity brought on by black privilege, then we can talk about WLM. But in the mean time, to paraphrase a meme, you don't walk across the street and interrupt the fire fighters while they are fighting a fire in your neighbor's house and say "Hey, what about my house? All houses matter!" — James Riley

They are not an oppressed minority when they have held the reigns of power in the very system that is defined as being systemically racist.

And what about all the other countries in this world with worse records than the U.S.? What is all this focus on the U.S. when the utter lack of any diversity in Western Europe and Asia is itself systemic racism?

You speak as if whites are the only race in the world that has never experienced oppression in history. Your whole speal just reaks of a lack of perspective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_by_country

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16/a-revealing-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-ethnically-diverse-countries/

All lives may matter but only an idiot would say that in the midst of a conversation about some lives. That's how "All Lives Matter" is an opposing view to BLM. It's a dummy interrupting a conversation with an irrelevant truth. "BLM!" "Really? How about them Broncos! Did you see that rain last night?" — James Riley

It's that the some lives' message is that everyone that is white, or wears a cop uniform is racist. It's an accusation that all whites are racist and need to be told that black lives matter, when it is already assumed by most that all lives matter. If all lives matter is already assumed to be the case, then why even say, some lives matter? You're simply assuming that because some whites are racist, they all are. THAT is racism in a nutshell.

Are you denying the current consequences and vestiges leftover from the days of American slavery?

They are not an oppressed minority when they have held the reigns of power in the very system that is defined as being systemically racist. — Harry Hindu

BS. They are an oppressed minority regardless of any lies the majority tells itself about those they oppress, and regardless of any anecdote (Obama?) they can point to. I know some dummies would like to think Obama ended racism and they could then safely ignore the causal mechanisms they benefit from. But that is not how facts and the truth work. You don't stop kicking a man and expect it to be all good when you stop. There's a reckoning that must take place. And it's not just the kickers, but all their progeny that benefited down through the ages from the initial kicking. Doh!

what about — Harry Hindu

"Whataboutism" if for weak minds. Be better.

You speak as if whites are the only race in the world that has never experienced oppression in history. Your whole speal just reaks of a lack of perspective. — Harry Hindu

That's because you're distracted by shiny objects and can't keep your eye on the ball. I've lived where I was an unwelcome minority, and I know full well whites can be such. But try to focus. Focus. We are talking about whether systemic racism exists in the U.S. Focus. Focus. Be better.

It's that the some lives' message is that everyone that is white, or wears a cop uniform is racist. — Harry Hindu

No, son. That's your guilty conscience shining through. You are telling those you perceive to be your opposition what it is they are saying, rather than letting them speak for themselves and then responding to that. They aren't saying all whites are racists any more than they are saying all blacks are racists. Sure, everyone is racist, even if subliminally, blacks included, but you are running off with your hair on fire and your panties in a knot over an issue that is not even on the table. And as to cops, don't confuse an occupation with race. A cop can take off his uniform. A black man can't take of his black (Michael Jackson notwithstanding).

If all lives matter is already assumed to be the case, then why even say, some lives matter? — Harry Hindu

I already explained this to you, but you are not paying attention. Focus, focus. Be better. Blacks (generally) are or have been oppressed. The causal mechanisms of their current behavior and situation linger. Idiots who think the fact the blacks are no longer slaves, or there was a half/half POTUS, means bygones should be bygones, are part of the systemic racism problem we have in the U.S. You, Harry Hindu, are living, walking, talking, posting proof of the answer to the question in the OP: Yes.

You're simply assuming that because some whites are racist, they all are. THAT is racism in a nutshell. — Harry Hindu

When you ASSume you are making an ass or yourself, not me. I never said or even implied "that because some whites are racist, they all are." It's just the racists themselves, and their enablers, who want to move on without having done the hard work. The first step is to admit you have a problem, Harry. Then and only then can the hard work begin. All whites benefit from systemic racism, even those who are not racists.

Ah. More ad hominems. That skit is getting old. — Harry Hindu

It's not an ad hominem if it's a statement of fact. Your reply, as usual, was a misrepresentation of what I said and a personal attack as well. It, like your latest, doesn't deserve my time because arguing with an idiot etc. Etc.

True. I wasn't suggesting you'd get angry or enraged. I was suggesting that you might be afraid. Very afraid. Now, if you had nothing to be afraid of, then they might be open to education. Failing that is when frustration and anger kick in. But here you are, the minority, trying to do the heavy lifting for them. I think you, in that case, and blacks here at home, in our case, shouldn't necessarily have to shoulder the burden of schooling their oppressors. The oppressors have a lot of work to do themselves, and the "enlightened" or "woke" members of their own should pitch in. — James Riley

I'd be afraid if I had a reason to be, for instance if there was residual anti-Semitism that reached the point of violence. There's so few Jews in Latvia and Lithuania today maybe we should take a country like Poland.

I hate to say it, but it is ultimately on the oppressed because the oppressed understand their own problems and situation better than the rest of the world. Even if allies try to connect and reach out, this is an interest or a hobby (maybe a job?) for us when it's your life. Allies certainly have some role to play and they can help, but it's not a leading one. I would feel intimidated teaching or lecturing on racism to other white people, but hats off to allies who make a genuine effort.

I can understand that. However, going to the extreme is not unlike a racist running to the "black welfare queen in Chicago" or pointing out the few looters in an otherwise peaceful protest or saying "All lives matter!" in response to a BLM statement. It's all a distraction from the merits of issue under discussion. It also ignores the casual mechanics of what got us here in an undesirable situation, and it is part of what keeps us here. — James Riley

I'm just always on the look-out. The last few posters that I talked to on this forum had this destructive mindset (including one from a former educator) so this type of mentality has become salient for me.

For example, views like that the oppressed class essentially has a blank check to do whatever they want to the oppressor class and they can't legitimately be criticized until the oppressor class is overthrown. Another poster framed it like the oppressed class is blameless and cannot even be held responsible even for crimes they commit against their own people as long as they're fighting an oppressor who is the real problem and the source of all problems. It's a sad reality, but I do ultimately need to check anti-racists to ensure that they're actually decent. I cannot trust them at face value.

It was a whole lot more than set up. It's billions of dollars every freaking year. — James Riley

It's not like Israel needs American foreign aid dollars to survive. American pumps billions into many other countries as well. All I'm saying is Israeli is ran by Israelis and when there's a war it's Israeli lives on the line. Other countries may support or cooperate with Israel, but at the end of the day Israel ultimately fends for itself.

the playing field is not level — James Riley

The playing field isn't level and never will be. Even if there was no slavery and we just dropped off black people into white society in the US in the 1820s-1830s or so they still don't speak the language or have any wealth with them. They wouldn't know the land. Sure, they could make a living and it would beat slavery but you're nowhere near bourgeoise white people levels both in terms of capital or - at least equally important -- the knowledge and experience that goes into maintaining that capital along with a ton of other financial knowledge about new financial products.

The way you formulated the issue made it sound as if I was the one who brought it up and was pushing it. — James Riley

I wasn't arguing with you and I didn't disagree with what you said, I was just picking your brain about how to best convey these truths to children as that's the current news issue. I didn't know you were black when I engaged you.

I'm sure CRT meant one thing to one "side" and another to the other. — James Riley

Yes, it does. I find myself watching videos on this subject and agreeing with both sides.

I really do think it's terrible branding, let's break it down word for word on this one.

Critical: This will remind many of "critical theory" which is a left-wing movement closely tied in with Marxism. For those who don't make that association, the word critical maybe sounds like judgmental or just nonsense jargon.

Race: A subject most Americans would rather avoid.

Theory: Americans just don't like theories. I don't know why, but we have a hard time with this concept in general. Americans like facts and success. Americans are also very uncomfortable with the idea that the majority ought to basically sit down and shut up when it comes to an important topic like race.

White people in general are suspicious of strong ethnic identities due to history in both Europe and here and I think decent chunk of white people wouldn't mind doing away with the idea of ethnic identity in general.

I hate to say it, but it is ultimately on the oppressed because the oppressed understand their own problems and situation better than the rest of the world. Even if allies try to connect and reach out, this is an interest or a hobby (maybe a job?) for us when it's your life. Allies certainly have some role to play and they can help, but it's not a leading one. I would feel intimidated teaching or lecturing on racism to other white people, but hats off to allies who make a genuine effort. — BitconnectCarlos

I don't know what to make of your response to my post. I have been arguing the exact opposite of having anyone in the non-oppressed community trying to "connect and reach out" to anyone in the oppressed community. I'm talking about those in the oppressor community reaching out to the oppressors and trying to work with them. In other words, "woke" whites should be schooling other "non-woke" whites. I'm not proposing that BitconnectCarlos go to Latvia and work with Jews, or even to Latvia to work with any anti-Semites that might be there (and who might kill him). I'm proposing that non-Jewish "woke" Latvians deal with Latvian anti-Semites. In America, it would be like me, a classic white male, dealing with racist, confederate, fascist white assholes, or even just simple dummies who deny racism exists and who think the "black issue" is over because, well, "emancipation and Obama!"

I'm just always on the look-out. — BitconnectCarlos

Those with a hammer see a lot of nails.

It's not like Israel needs American foreign aid dollars to survive. — BitconnectCarlos

I disagree. But I'm not going down that rabbit hole with you.

The playing field isn't level and never will be. — BitconnectCarlos

It would be level, or a whole lot leveler if we would have, after the Civil War, dealt with the enemy in this way: All former slave-owning properties were given to former slaves; All children of former slave-owners were taken from their families and removed to a school in Carlisle, PA for re-education; All wives and old men of former slave-owners were shipped off to distant Reservations to become dependent wards of the government; All former slave-owning men were forced into indentured servitude under their former slaves for a period of years; All proven sympathizers of slavery and/or former slave-owners were subject to the same treatment; All those who resisted were hung or shot.

That is people within the oppressor community dealing with the oppressors.

The fact such did not occur is proof-positive of the greatest example of post-war white privilege in history. And it left us with the systemic racism we deal with today. There would be no people flying the Stars and Bars in the shadow of the First Amendment. There would be no statues glorifying Traitors. And the racists would not be out from under the fridge, in the daylight, brave and getting braver. No one would be left to take pride in their treasonous ancestors.

That is the left-wing liberal woke whites dealing with the white racists. That is the whites giving he blacks the tools to do what they need to do (just like the Jews were given the tools they needed to do what they have done). But we didn't do that because of white privilege and systemic racism. Hell, even many a Northern White Abolitionist didn't want the blacks "that" free.

I didn't know you were black when I engaged you. — BitconnectCarlos

I'm not black.

I'm not black. — James Riley

LOL I must have misread you somewhere! Ok lol.

I don't know what to make of your response to my post. I have been arguing the exact opposite of having anyone in the non-oppressed community trying to "connect and reach out" to anyone in the oppressed community. I'm talking about those in the oppressor community reaching out to the oppressors and trying to work with them. In other words, "woke" whites should be schooling other "non-woke" whites. — James Riley

In order for this to happen white allies need to take direction from black communities. We absolutely need this coordination to happen before whites go out and do this type of work. Whites are not to be operating independently.

It would be level, or a whole lot leveler if we would have, after the Civil War, dealt with the enemy in this way: All former slave-owning properties were given to former slaves; All children of former slave-owners were taken from their families and removed to a school in Carlisle, PA for re-education; All wives and old men of former slave-owners were shipped off to distant Reservations to become dependent wards of the government; All former slave-owning men were forced into indentured servitude under their former slaves for a period of years; All proven sympathizers of slavery and/or former slave-owners were subject to the same treatment; All those who resisted were hung or shot. — James Riley

This is unjust. Justice must occur on an individual level - children of slaveholders are not guilty and should not be stripped from their parents. No more breaking apart families. Two wrongs don't make a right. Justice cannot be carried out on a group level like that. I can't tell where you're getting your idea of justice from.

In order for this to happen white allies need to take direction from black communities. We absolutely need this coordination to happen before whites go out and do this type of work. Whites are not to be operating independently. — BitconnectCarlos

I emphatically disagree. Whites need to clean their own house. We don't need blacks telling us we need to put the crazy uncle back in the basement. We know that. We know what is wrong. It's on us to deal with it. The black folks might need help getting their feet under them, but they don't need to be saddled with helping us unfuck our stupid racist legacy. They've had enough of that. We didn't consult with them and they didn't tell us how to kill confederates and slave owners. It was our mess. We just didn't take out all the trash after the war was over and we left them with a mess to clean up. That's not fair to them. If they want to be magnanimous, forgive, whatever, that's fine. But they have their own things to do besides helping us deal with those within our ranks who absolutely hate them.

Example, like you said, Jews can run their own affairs. They might need some help ($) and someone killing fascists while they try to set up, but they don't need to be telling us how to how to fix what we know is wrong with us. That's on us. "Hey Jews, come on back to Germany here and help us educate these people about the error of their ways. You don't have anything better to do, right?" LOL!

This is unjust. Justice must occur on an individual level - children of slaveholders are not guilty and should not be stripped from their parents. No more breaking apart families. Two wrongs don't make a right. Justice cannot be carried out on a group level like that. I can't tell where you're getting your idea of justice from. — BitconnectCarlos

It's too late now, but failure of follow through left us with 150 years of segregation, disenfranchisement, Jim Crow, burnings, shootings, lynching's, theft, rape, systemic racism, Trump, neo-Nazis and white supremacists (out from under the fridge; I know they would always be with us, but they'd be hiding instead of out and proud) and causal mechanics that we will deal with for god knows how long into the future. And you know who's fault that is? It's the fault of your counterparts back in the day.

I'm done with this conversation. Remember, the first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem. Anyone who thinks we don't have systemic racism (OP) has a problem.

P.S. One final thought: My feelings about this spring largely from a desire to honor all the people who suffered and died killing fascists in WWII and traitors in the Civil War. Imagine that "last full measure of devotion" being disrespected the way we have. Yellow ribbons and bumper stickers and flowers on the grave don't do it. We need to live in accord with the ideals and aspirations of the nation they fought suffered for. Or it was all for naught.

It's not an ad hominem if it's a statement of fact. Your reply, as usual, was a misrepresentation of what I said and a personal attack as well. It, like your latest, doesn't deserve my time because arguing with an idiot etc. Etc. — Benkei

Hilarious. Go back and look at my reply and you will see that there are no ad hominems - only questioning your crazy assertions. But that is expected from you - that any questioning of your assertions is a personal attack because you are deeply emotionally invested in your assertions. Why, Benkei, are you so emotionally invested in diversity in America when your own country lacks the diversity that exists in America? Keep posting your unfounded claims about race relations in America (where you don't live) and I will be there to personally attack you with questions. :roll:

BS. They are an oppressed minority regardless of any lies the majority tells itself about those they oppress, and regardless of any anecdote (Obama?) they can point to. — James Riley

Blah, blah blah. In other words anything that is said that contradicts your assumptions just isn't true and you don't have to prove it. What does systemic racism look like in America? What would the absence of systemic racism look like in America if not an elected black person as President? Sounds like there is no end to systemic racism so what is the point?

They aren't saying all whites are racists any more than they are saying all blacks are racists. Sure, everyone is racist, even if subliminally, blacks included, — James Riley

Wait...what? They aren't saying that all whites are racist, but you are? Who is "they" and why are you contradicting them? Which is it? Are we all racists or not? Are you a racist? If so, why should we be listening to you? What have you done to offset your racism?

When you ASSume you are making an ass or yourself, not me. I never said or even implied "that because some whites are racist, they all are." It's just the racists themselves, and their enablers, who want to move on without having done the hard work. The first step is to admit you have a problem, Harry. Then and only then can the hard work begin. All whites benefit from systemic racism, even those who are not racists. — James Riley

But you said everyone is a racist, including blacks. If you are claiming that even blacks are racist, then BLM is racist! You whole post is riddled with contradictions and you're telling me to stay focused? Puh-leeeze.

Are you denying the current consequences and vestiges leftover from the days of American slavery? — creativesoul

This is like asking if I deny the existence of god without having defined god. What consequences and vestiges are you taking about? Surely these consequences existed for 40-50 years after the Civil War, but 150-160 years after the Civil War? How long do the consequences of any racism in the history of the world last? At what point in history did the consequences and vestiges of white oppression in human history cease to exist? At what point does the consequences of what the Germans did to the Jews cease to exist?