Does a statement that prevents sexual assault of women in the interim offer a service or a disservice? Do you still state that such a statement that prevents sexual assault is irrelevant and an insult? — Outlander
Bear in mind were also talking about the general non-binary concept of a sober person being less likely to be taken advantage of than a deliriously drunk person. — Outlander
While that's a good approach in principle, it maybe too idealistic. Many women (particularly a so-called career woman), would more often than not complain to HR/management and thus would take exception to a MAN asking her that question. She would get offended and defensive (probably because she's insecure deep down and the man was simply speaking the truth). — 3017amen
My question to women out there, regarding the OP, is I often wondered about this disjuncture. An that relates to aesthetics. There is this old paradigm that used to say 'men are too visual' . Well, I think some women are kidding themselves for the following reasons:
1. Most women want an attractive man that they feel chemistry with physically, in order to have sex.
If that were not true, then the following could exist:
1.a: Some women will sleep/marry a fat ugly guy who has lots of money which in turn suggests they are not interested in sex, but security.
1.b: Some women don't care about the physicality piece, and they like sex for the sake of sex, and as long as the penis gets hard, they are good to go. In other words, they are not concerned with the visual aspect like they say men are; they will sleep with unattractive men. And that suggests they like sex more than some men. — 3017amen
When I dress to look good I don't want to be treated as a disposable dildo. I certainly want to attract women but to think that that amounts to the desire to be objectified is patently false. — Michael
but honestly, if you can demonstrate a genuine interest in who I am as a thinking, feeling human being, then I’m not going to write you off based on your looks - that’s rare enough in the singles game. Unassuming charm, a quick intellect and courage will always get my attention, but it isn’t all that difficult to spot the guys who are only interested in ‘closing the deal’ if you’re paying attention. — Possibility
How do both men and women escape that? — 3017amen
My point was that you cannot assume a woman’s intentions purely by the way she’s dressed. — Possibility
I didn’t write this with a workplace situation in mind at all, — Possibility
but a fat ugly guy won’t get away with the same slick, shallow moves even if I’m desperate, I’m afraid. Most women are looking for a sexual partner - not sex, per say. — Possibility
a partner isn’t a requirement for a satisfying sexual encounter. — Possibility
It's quite possible to feel desire or attraction for a person without objectifying them. There's a difference between a thing and a person, and no great effort is required to know the difference. I think that the difference is known even by those who objectify another, but they are so completely selfish and concerned to pleasure themselves that they ignore the difference. We can recognize this is a defect, a weakness, and overcome it. We take sex far too seriously. — Ciceronianus the White
Women want to have it both ways - make men desire them as objects (of sex) but not make men think of them as objects (of sex). — TheMadFoolWhat's wrong with that? Just because you - many (most?) hetero-males - can't handle that, doesn't entail it's wrong or that a woman shouldn't have her dawgs & her dignity too. :smirk: — 180 Proof
I've never been able to really live with them or without them — 180 Proof
All happiness or unhappiness solely depends upon the quality of the object to which we are attached by love." ~Benny Spinoza — 180 Proof
That root fact essentially being "less women will become sexually assaulted if dressed modestly and remain sober". If it is a fact and by communicating it to multiple people less women become victims of sexual assault... I ask you. Is that a service or a disservice?
There is no church state now. No moral guidelines for raising children. If people want to embrace the worst traits of humanity to get ahead they will. It is simply the world we live in. So again. Is such a statement that prevents countless sexual assaults a service or a disservice? — Outlander
It's a disservice, as you're framing it as the victim's responsibility to refrain from acceptable behaviour as a means to lessen the chance of being victimized rather than the perpetrator's responsibility to refrain from unacceptable and criminal behaviour.
Should a gay couple refrain from holding hands in public where there are known to be homophobes? Should a Muslim family refrain from practicing their religion where there are known to be Islamophobes? — Michael
Really, can you explain that one? Think of it this way, when you go on a dating site, many if not all will say something like 'if you have no picture, I won't respond'. Why is that, I wonder? — 3017amen
Are men and women shallow? For instance, if you were a pen pal with someone for a year, and really connected with them intellectually and spiritually, but when you met them they were not what you expected (or whatever else was wrong with them physically or chemistry-wise) would you still be attracted to them? — 3017amen
People do not objectify themsleves. Not even when they're writhing around naked in front of a crowd. The supposition they must be a sexual object come from the watching crowd — TheWillowOfDarkness
I wonder if he said this before or after he pushed a woman down a stairway because he thought she was too loud. Later, he gloated when she died thereby ending his obligation to pay damages for her injuries.
Charming fellow, Schopenhauer. — Ciceronianus the White
Perhaps I am strange in finding this extremely uncomfortable, it seems deeply transgressive to me. — fdrake
I find it uncomfortable as well. Sex without genuine connection seems to me like masturbating with someone else's body. You pretend to care so that you can use someone else.
And to know that another person doesn't care about you beyond your appearance, and to be okay with that, makes it sound like you don't really care about yourself — darthbarracuda
If both parties are playing the game, it's a form of relating to someone as a person, not merely using someone as a means or treating them as an object. — jamalrob
I find it uncomfortable as well. Sex without genuine connection seems to me like masturbating with someone else's body. You pretend to care so that you can use someone else.
And to know that another person doesn't care about you beyond your appearance, and to be okay with that, makes it sound like you don't really care about yourself. — darthbarracuda
If sex doesn't mean anything, then it's masturbation. — darthbarracuda
For you it might be. For others, casual sex is most often a much more complex and interesting connection between two people than mere masturbation, no matter how brief the encounter. — jamalrob
was making the point that lies and manipulation are most often just part and parcel of flirtation and casual sex, entered into willingly by both parties, and thus not bad. — jamalrob
For you it might be. For others, casual sex is most often a much more complex and interesting connection between two people than mere masturbation, no matter how brief the encounter. — jamalrob
But I don't even think it's clear how to distinguish genuine from fake interest. In performing a connection, a connection is made, I think. Often. — jamalrob
Do you care if the guy is successfully putting on caring and flirting as a performance? This is something I've never gotten my head around. The hetero male flirting for casual sex metagame seems to me all about adaptively signalling caring and interest as well as desire. Like - would you see it as a transgression if they're putting on a performance like that? Or is it an acceptable risk/otherwise fine for you as part of the social rituals that mediate casual sex?
It might seem like an obscure question, but I've had quite a few very candid discussions with guys on their casual sex flirting strategies, and they're all about trying to signal interest and generate connection regardless of whether they really give a damn or not. Perhaps I am strange in finding this extremely uncomfortable, it seems deeply transgressive to me. — fdrake
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