Suicide is totally self-centred just as the phrase I quote above indicates. And necessarily, a self-centred view cannot reach a use, a purpose, a meaning, or a reason to live. — unenlightened

Why don't the most self-centred twats (e.g. putin) commit suicide then? I consider people like that the most self-centred and useless beings on Earth.

Why don't the most self-centred twats (e.g. putin) commit suicide then? I consider people like that the most self-centred and useless beings on Earth. — Professor Death

Dude, you can be right and I can be right too. I say 'Stop lights are red' and you say 'How come tomatoes aren't stop lights? Tomatoes are the reddest things ever.'

Suicide is totally self-centred just as the phrase I quote above indicates. And necessarily, a self-centred view cannot reach a use, a purpose, a meaning, or a reason to live.

When I was in college, I attempted suicide, so I feel compelled to try and offer some insight. Introvertedness, sense of purpose and Being, self-centered-ness, all play a role in the emotional angst that contributes to such suicidal tendencies.

As unenlightened suggested, a 'selfish' person (for a lack of a better description) only looks at their feelings of happiness, purpose, goals, etc.. And to put too much emphasis on oneself, greatly contributes to the existential angst. Constantly worrying about yourself can put you in a funk. In times like those (dark moments where thoughts can easily spiral out of control into nothing but dread), it is best to let be. Feel those feelings of despair for what they are; they are naturally telling you something... .

Become more self-aware and allow for time to pass, and pay particular attention to recognizing that life is all about relationships. Someone built the house you live in; assembled the car you drive, made the food you eat, comes to your graduation event, supports your business (customers) etc. etc.. It is through others that we achieve our goals; sense of purpose, happiness/sadness, open doors/closed doors (yin-yang of life) and so on. Remember we are all interconnected Beings.

Sometimes you can confuse loneliness with boredom. Get out, reach out, and stay engaged and connected. Life is, once again, about relationships.

I agree with you, I just want people like putin to shuffle off rather than linger around for years (decades).

Why don't those with power consider suicide?

Thanks for your honesty.

to put too much emphasis on oneself, greatly contributes to the existential angst. Constantly worrying about yourself can put you in a funk. — 3017amen

Oh yes, that's really insightful. I say selfish not as a moral condemnation, because it comes very often from trauma, childhood trauma often. It's just a simple fact that might sound more acceptable if I put it thus: only love is a reason to live.

Oh yes, that's really insightful. I say selfish not as a moral condemnation, because it comes very often from trauma, childhood trauma often. It's just a simple fact that might sound more acceptable if I put it thus: only love is a reason to live. — unenlightened

Indeed. It was me who used the word selfish, but it's kind of appropriate. Selfishness is kind of like pride. There is a good kind of pride (proud of your accomplishments, family, etc.) then there is the bad kind of pride/exaggerated self worth (AKA big ego). Selfishness can be bad if it turns into a sort of narcissistic preoccupation, and fragile ego. And so the good kind of selfishness, is that we are all self-directed individual's with unique qualities we decide to bring to the dance.

Perhaps it comes down to volitional existence. We can choose to participate and be part of a bigger thing, or we can choose to check-out.

Except it doesn't happen. Forcing someone to stay alive is difficult even when they are incarcerated. I keep asking you what is your experience of this or what cases can you cite, and you don't come up with even a description of an instance.

And again, even if it were commonplace, what is the relevance to my description of the nature of suicide? I'm certainly not forcing anyone to stay alive, I'm posting on a philosophy site and I wouldn't have a clue how to go about it. — unenlightened

Alright, fair point I should have used a less strong word than “force”. What I had in mind is when someone wants to end their suffering by ending their life (which is rational) and someone tries to stop them, either by social pressure or physically by having that person committed etc.
If you are trying to prevent someone from killing themselves in the context ive laid out then you are in some sense forcing them to suffer (in cases where ending their suffering is their reason for killing themselves.)
I wasnt intending to talk about literal cases of actually physically restraining someone from the act of suicide.
Anyway, It hasnt gone unnoticed by me that you have failed to actually address my points against you here so Ive begun to wonder what the point in wasting my words is.

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Thanks for your wisdom in this thread. I feel like I'm eating philosophical kale.

If you are trying to prevent someone from killing themselves in the context ive laid out then you are in some sense forcing them to suffer (in cases where ending their suffering is their reason for killing themselves.) — DingoJones

Yes, it is certainly possible to use coercive control or the mental health system for such selfish ends. It is possible too to have selfish motives for opposing suicide in general - one might have the patent on happy pills or something.

One would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to understand that in addition to longstanding depression, anxiety, loss, grief or money troubles that there are places in people's hearts and souls that are not open to others to analyze or tabulate or study. And these "places" are not subject to life coaches, or the endless American drumbeat of "tomorrow, tomorrow," or cheer-up drugs.

Sometimes it is just time to end life.

Sometimes the struggle to pretend that all will be well becomes absurd and burdensome.

I think we need to do our best to love, understand and help all around us, but allow that middle-aged person to opt out, when they no longer feel able to endure. — Chisholm

If I used the term 'personal' instead of 'selfish', would you allow that I might be somewhat sensible of each and every one of those considerations you mention?. All i have really said is that if one kills oneself for the benefit of others, rather than to end one's own suffering, we do not call it suicide, but self-sacrifice.

In addition, I was responding to the particularity of the op:

If someone finds their life to be "useless".., — Anthony Kennedy

I may have misunderstood, but it is indicative of a very common line of thinking philosophically that demands that life should have a use. A cost-benefit analysis of life is bound to find it useless. because use is relational, not an objective property. I do think this is quite important, and that it is a great pity for people to die of a philosophical folly that arises from a totally self-centred viewpoint and that leads inexorably to depression, feelings of absurdity, anxiety and so on that you mention.

A question I have is a dark one but is asked with no ill intentions.

If someone finds their life to be "useless", who's say is it to try and deter their thinking. Also, are there any arguments that support suicide besides that of physician assisted suicide? — Anthony Kennedy

An interesting take on the issue of suicide - relating the intent to end one's own life to one's perceived (and actual) utility. Reminds me of my college days when I came across biochemical redundant systems in cells. It appears that there are multiple chemical pathways that end in a desired biomolecule but only one of them is actually operating at any point in time. The other redundant, useless, pathways lie dormant until the primary pathway fails or is rendered non-functional. In effect, redundant or useless biochemical pathways are like backup generators that switch on when the main power supply fails. In the context of this discussion, it might be immensely beneficial to maintain a healthy population of completely useless folk and it beehoves us to discourage suicide among them. :chin:

It's just a simple fact that might sound more acceptable if I put it thus: only love is a reason to live. — unenlightened

I'm not interested in love but I like living. There are more reasons than love to live.

Admitting you are depressed isn't that different from saying that you have a kind of physical wound, of course, people are going to recommend that you get it treated or offer you aid. Depression isn't an intellectual position, it's a mental illness that nobody would choose for themselves and someone in this state of mind either has ideas helping to cause their depression (which is bad) or has ideas shaped by their depression.

That's the issue with illnesses that affect the mind, it is disrupting one's thoughts and interfering with one's ability to think clearly.

I'm not interested in love but I like living. There are more reasons than love to live. — Michael

I'm open to persuasion on that, though I take 'love' broadly in my universal pontification. Reasons that are not about other people you may have, but a solitary life is certainly harder to sustain in a positive frame of mind. But tell us about it. Personally, I find I am dependent on others not merely physically, but psychologically - but there are sociopaths and hermits I suppose.

I guess i am sceptical mainly because liking living seems a very fragile motivation for living, if one became subject to chronic pain, such a liking might not be sustained.

I'm open to persuasion on that, though I take 'love' broadly in my universal pontification. Reasons that are not about other people you may have, but a solitary life is certainly harder to sustain in a positive frame of mind. But tell us about it. Personally, I find I am dependent on others not merely physically, but psychologically - but there are sociopaths and hermits I suppose. — unenlightened

I wasn't talking about a solitary life. Friends, family, flings, etc. By "love" I assumed you were talking about romantic love which I'm not looking for.

Admitting you are depressed isn't that different from saying that you have a kind of physical wound, of course, people are going to recommend that you get it treated or offer you aid. Depression isn't an intellectual position, it's a mental illness that nobody would choose for themselves and someone in this state of mind either has ideas helping to cause their depression (which is bad) or has ideas shaped by their depression.

That's the issue with illnesses that affect the mind, it is disrupting one's thoughts and interfering with one's ability to think clearly. — Judaka

...interesting views that everyone has contributed thus far, I must say... .

I did think that the aforementioned quote from Judaka was worth noting too, because of the pathological metaphor there. I look at it like the concept of 'extremes'. Meaning, being extremely happy all the time v. being extremely sad all the time. Regarding the former, an analogy would be PBA, the laughing disorder. While it's almost funny just writing about it here, imagine if one could not stop laughing, would it get old? (It might result in a lot of physical pain too... .)

I think in many ways we are back to moderation (Aristotle), balance, yin-yang, integration of opposite's (Maslow), so on and so forth. Put it another way, aside from one's body wearing out, the more you live life, the more fun it is....really!!!!

Beyond this, indeed, depression can be a very very serious disorder that needs immediate attention.