All kinds of things can tempt towards suicide. But if certain philosophies are depressing so too are some philosophies optimistic and life affirming. So, are you reading the right philosophers? Ultimately life itself is its own philosophy. Philosophy in books are an abstraction, that may be far from the truth.

bizarro world? dude you're in a philosophy forum, you must damn know what determinism is?
only the quantum basics of the universe are contingent, nothing else is, not events or probabilities, every action has a reaction, everything has a cause.
free will is an illusion
sense is not something we make here, logic is

@Augustusea Yes determinism. The dogma of those who have stunted their common sense and logic.
Everything has a cause? What caused the mythical big bang?
Problem is the philosophically illiterate run to scientism and then cant even explain how they choose their own breakfast.

If pessimism is the result of having to watch two people go back and forth, each time refusing to have their core beliefs challenged- it's looking more and more likely...

The two arguments presented for and against determinism present examples that make each true- yet leave out some examples or scenarios where each can be made less true ie. circumstantial to the other.

We don't have a choice in not feeling hungry. Unless you get drunk. Nevertheless our body will still "be" hungry. Does that mean you have to eat? It means you should. But if there is nothing or say you're not eating for some social purpose like a hunger strike. You can choose what to eat. Or you can choose to literally just starve if you really wanted to for some odd reason.

Biologically we're all slaves to hunger, thirst, the elements, etc. This is not unique to human beings. However to solely use these as the arguments for determinism does the philosophy a disservice.

If I was driving home one night after working double overtime and I was just so tired and dozed off, hitting another car and messing up my shoulder as well as my car and the others' and lose my license and job- there are two ways to look at what happened. I simply had to work that job as it was the only thing available to pay my bills and provide for myself and I needed the extra hours because I splurged on a few things last week- or rather something important came up. Ergo, some would say, nothing could have prevented what happened. A common statement during hard times ie. "it was just his time", etc. There's the obvious counter argument- "no it wasn't" lol. Saying it was preventable, etc.

That's the thing about arguing and getting upset about things that already happened- especially misfortune. It becomes tediously irrelevant. As long as lessons are learned that is..

point is, you don't choose your own breakfast,
that was pre determined by many factors before it and affecting it,
and take this example for instance, do you want to kill your dad?
yes? can you not want to kill your dad? if you say yes again, it would require you to want to not want it
which is simply illogical, you cannot keep wanting in an infinite manner,
now if you said now you don't want to kill your dad, can you want to kill your dad? that would require you to want to want to and so on,
you cannot control your wants, therefore you cannot control what you do, meaning you are determined


as for what caused the mythical big bang that's a red herring and is another discussion

@Augustusea I chose my own breakfast. If your logic says no then it's not logic but dogma. Tell me,how do.you learn anything new if your determined? Is a boxing match determined?
When folks get that blinded by their thinking that they cant identify their own will and choice then really I say you have been bewitched by false doctrine.
The examples you gave and the big bang response are just illogical. Tell me was it determined for you to get up this morning at the exact time you did?
I notice determinists cannot explain the simplest of everyday experiences.

you don't have a choice in anything, its determinism 101 — Augustusea

Yes, determinism 101, a huge pile of bunk.

haven't even presented a counter argument or an argument for free will at least, jesus
Argumentum Ad Lapidem

I've considered myself a pessimist now, and I'm 38 years old. To be honest, it leads me to being severely depressed & suicidal; there is not a single day now where I don't think of death, and even suicide personally. — niki wonoto

Although admittedly, my pessimistic outlook were perhaps mostly & originally also caused by what I've considered myself & my life to be a failure. — niki wonoto

Why do you consider it a failure? According to what standard? Your own or others? If your own, why do you hold those standards and not others? Some might say you're a success. You need a standard on which to judge failure or success, and it helps by starting with a particular area. Narrow it down a little. Are you a "failure" in finance, health, relationships, education, work, job?

38 seems a little young to be pessimistic. I read Schopenhauer in my early 30s, but never became suicidal. A good antidote to pessimism is realizing what Nietzsche pointed out: it's simply one perspective, betraying a physiological disposition more than anything else. He was responding directly to Schopenhauer.

Is this world really that awful or painful? For some people, some of the time. But not for most. If you live in the United States or in Europe, you're far more privileged than most of the world, and in fact most people in history. Most of these "other" people are too busy to be depressed or pessimistic. We in the West, with our technology and higher standard of living, have the time to say "It's not good enough."The point being: it's something learned, and it can be un-learned. First and foremost, stop reading things that confirm and reinforce your depression -- that's no different than political information silos.

There are plenty of opportunities in life, and you can make what you wish of it. Not happy with yourself? Well, suicide is an option -- true. But if death doesn't scare you, what the hell if holding you back in LIFE? Loss? Rejection? Failing? Compared to voluntary, eternal non-existence, none of these things seem all that bad.

There are also practical measures you can take to beat depression (and pessimism) if you really are motivated. Meditation is a great one for that. There's plenty of resources online. But be forewarned: it's hard work. Exercise helps a lot. Diet too. Having good friends, and generally a strong social support system is also very beneficial -- most suicides and depression stems from isolation and loneliness. Having an idea of what you want out of life -- working towards something -- is crucial as well. What do you care about? Get engaged with others and work towards that.

All of these things, individually or (better) in combination will pull you out of depression. If you're extremely depressed and suicidal, then see a therapist. Meds can really help, at least as training wheels.

Cheers.

“They encounter a sick man or an old man or a corpse, and immediately they say, 'Life is refuted.' But only they themselves are refuted, and their eyes, which see only this one face of existence.” -- Nietzsche

I chose my own breakfast. If your logic says no then it's not logic but dogma — Asif

Let me formulate this deductively,
I chose my breakfast
therefore I have free will, this is clear circular reasoning, a logical fallacy mon amie,

do you learn anything new if your determined? Is a boxing match determined? — Asif

I am determined to learn new things in the future, and yes a boxing match is determined, because of all the factors accounting into it determining the result, the illusion of free will exists, but is just that, and illusion

When folks get that blinded by their thinking that they cant identify their own will and choice then really I say you have been bewitched by false doctrine. — Asif

Simple Argumentum Ad Hominem, and then you claim my doctrine to be false without any actual counter arguments, which is a Argumentum Ad Lapidem

The examples you gave and the big bang response are just illogical. Tell me was it determined for you to get up this morning at the exact time you did? — Asif

again with the Argumentum Ad Lapidem, you are providing no reasoning to why my position is illogical nor any counter arguments, this is unproductive.
yes it was, because I didn't get up by my choice, that's pretty clear.

I notice determinists cannot explain the simplest of everyday experiences. — Asif

you literally are just throwing accusations and fallacies around yet provide no actual counter arguments or point out the illogical in my arguments, I see this debate as entirely unproductive, and doesn't follow to the Socratic method, if you continue to do so I will be ignoring any responses

point is, you don't choose your own breakfast,
that was pre determined by many factors before it and affecting it, — Augustusea

So along this line... there's truth here. You or I can't choose to have a 50-egg omelette the size of a truck tire with a side of caviar every morning... we can't afford it/don't have the ingredients.

The choices we have for breakfast are limited to what we have available and is a result of other circumstances. When we went shopping, what we bought, what we can and cannot afford or otherwise can and cannot eat or simply prefer to eat. It's not impossible to have nearly anything for breakfast, after all circumstances can and some even say- when undesirable- are meant to be changed.

So where does that leave us as far as determinism? Who knows, a friend can stop by with McDonald's or something on a whim and that ends up being your breakfast. Everything is determined by something. What I think that determinism doesn't properly include is that everything can change. The Earth could lose it's gravity one day. Some things (circumstances or "realities") are simply less likely to change than others.

The choices we have for breakfast are limited to what we have available and is a result of other circumstances. When we went shopping, what we bought, what we can and cannot afford or otherwise can and cannot eat or simply prefer to eat. It's not impossible to have nearly anything for breakfast, after all circumstances can and some even say- when undesirable- are meant to be changed. — Outlander

My argument is, that you don't make the choices you think you do make, you have an illusion of choice, of free will, but it actually is none existent for life,
you have the illusion of two roads you can take to school, and the illusion of choosing road A for example, but you in reality didn't choose, you were determined to for the reasons I explained above.

So where does that leave us as far as determinism? Who knows, a friend can stop by with McDonald's or something on a whim and that ends up being your breakfast. Everything is determined by something. What I think that determinism doesn't properly include is that everything can change. The Earth could lose it's gravity one day. Some things (circumstances or "realities") are simply less likely to change than others. — Outlander

who knows is not a proper answer, logically, because who knows the tooth fairy may exist and Fascism was humanity's greatest creation, who knows
we can logically prove determinism via deductive methods in philosophy,
as for everything can change? well you have to prove so, you have to prove that there is a possibility, the earth could change suddenly one day,
and then you have to explain how this affects determinism for living organisms

haven't even presented a counter argument or an argument for free will at least — Augustusea

I've been doing that all through the thread. It's true there are some things we have no choice about, and equally true there are some things we DO have a choice about. It's the simplest thing which could be explained to a child of five. Sorry to be harsh, but you're just chanting memorized phrases and concepts at us, not actually thinking.

@Augustusea Socratic method! Ah,the appeal to authority. If somebody says the sky is a pink elephant I dont have to refute him. Ditto your assertions are thus.
And you dont explain how you can choose to respond further or not. Just self refuting pedantic guff.
I suppose you cant raise your hand as a demonstration
or choose to blow out candles at your birthday either.
Ludicrous.

now you're just going Ad Hominem,
I have checked the thread, and you presented no argument for free will or against determinism, you literally just called it a pile of bunk now, that's it,
this isn't productive

Socratic method! Ah,the appeal to authority. If somebody says the sky is a pink elephant I dont have to refute him. Ditto your assertions are thus. — Asif

Appeal to authority? its just a way of discussing a topic as to reach a common conclusion, and for both parties to benefit intellectually, jesus, also committing poo poo, very cool man, you just got the determinist now with all your fallacies.

And you dont explain how you can choose to respond further or not. Just self refuting pedantic guff.
I suppose you cant raise your hand as a demonstration
or choose to blow out candles at your birthday either.
Ludicrous. — Asif

I didn't even imply I was going to choose, because it was entirely dependent on your attitude, this is my last reply, since this is very unproductive.

and you presented no argument for free will or against determinism — Augustusea

Did you choose to write that post?

I had the illusion of doing so, so I did not actually.

Ok then, so if you truly have no control over anything, then there is exactly no point to any philosophy.

Sorry to be harsh with you, I really don't mean to, and have no personal problem with you at all. It's just that this determinism business is highly sophomoric, and I'm an old man, apparently running low on patience. My bad.

When I was your age I went on a binge of reading Solzhenitsyn, a similar experience as reading Schopenhauer I suppose, all dark and dreary and desperate etc. It's a phase a lot of young guys go through. It'll pass.

There's a good cure for this ailment though. Boobies. I'll say no more. :-)

@Augustusea You are getting owned thats why you CHOOSE to back out. In no way can you defend your assertion of determinism,nor anyone else.
You had the illusion of doing so but actually did not?
Solved your problem. Determinism is an illusion.
I note early in the thread you mentioned how a person can be angry at suffering but has to DECIDE how to be angry.
Aka,he wills the how,he decides. You cant escape the fact you have choice and will.

@Hippyhead :up:
The most salient point is if we have no control there is no point to philosophy or science.
But even determinists live as if they have control which of course everybody has.
Can you put the bins out honey? No. Why not dear? I'm determined not to! Its fated! Its science sugar... Divorce.

Ignorance dies in the face of scrutiny, but not for the ignorant.

Determinism is an illusion — Asif

Some things are clearly determined and beyond our choice. But not EVERYTHING.

@Hippyhead Our Will is not determined at all.
What to you would be an example of something determined?

@Augustusea Excellent irrelevant aphorism. But you were fated to say that so you get no credit. :cool:

What to you would be an example of something determined? — Asif

I'm incurably philosophical, as is my family tree, a fact established before I was born and beyond my control to change.

@Hippyhead How was it established before you were born?
I can't change that i WILL but that is more a linguistic misunderstanding. My nature my innate desire IS to Will.
Saying I can't change that is moot. I Dont want to. In fact its shows the absoluteness of the will in that it cannot be thwarted.
It's like saying to someone you cant will to be unhappy therefore you are Determined and cant change your desire to be happy. An abuse of language I think.

My argument is, that you don't make the choices you think you do make, you have an illusion of choice, of free will, but it actually is none existent for life,
you have the illusion of two roads you can take to school, and the illusion of choosing road A for example, but you in reality didn't choose, you were determined to for the reasons I explained above. — Augustusea

If I understand correctly, and agree with much of it, our circumstances in which we make choices or otherwise determine what choices can be made is largely if not entirely outside of our control?

I get that. The average person has an average job and isn't a millionaire. He cannot go on crazy vacations more than a few times a year or splurge on things like second homes, boats, Rolex watches, etc. And- even if he does "randomly" win the lottery and all that changes, you'd insist on saying it really was not random and he was simply determined or dare I say "destined" to win the lottery. Right?

I guess the question that needs to be asked is what would you say would need to happen/what circumstances would a reality have where there is your definition of free will and how does that compare to the one we live in now?

How was it established before you were born? — Asif

Genetics.

If I understand correctly, and agree with much of it, our circumstances in which we make choices or otherwise determine what choices can be made is largely if not entirely outside of our control? — Outlander

Correct

I get that. The average person has an average job and isn't a millionaire. He cannot go on crazy vacations more than a few times a year or splurge on things like second homes, boats, Rolex watches, etc. And- even if he does "randomly" win the lottery and all that changes, you'd insist on saying it really was not random and he was simply determined or dare I say "destined" to win the lottery. Right? — Outlander

Yes, because all the actions done by the production and lottery company, and the store, and all the workers, and shipment, lead for that lottery ticket to be there, and his conditions, his inability to control his wants, his past experiences and actions lead him to buying that specific lottery ticket.

I guess the question that needs to be asked is what would you say would need to happen/what circumstances would a reality have where there is your definition of free will and how does that compare to the one we live in now? — Outlander

ok, so the definition of free will generally is: the ability to choose to have done otherwise.

so if I chose A instead of B one day ago, if we go back, I would have the ability to choose B instead and would choose B.

so a person needs to one, not be affected by any outside condition or sense, so we need to remove the world and his body (count as senses), and then he needs not to be affected by himself, his psychic and wants, and therefore we remove his brain, then you can have free will we could say, but then he doesn't exist and there won't be any free will to be had since it requires a being existing