The thing is, if someone is sexually obsessed - then celibacy or no celibacy, he's likely to be just as obsessed, because it's a problem of his mind, not of anything else. It's a mistake if a celibate sexually obsessed person thinks that engaging in sex and leaving his celibacy will actually cure his sexual obsession - in fact it's likely to lead to potentially serious psychological trouble as his core values suddenly change, and this sudden movement tears the entire sense of self apart. Sex cannot cure sexual obsession, and neither can celibacy for that matter. That's what reason is for, as for example cognitive behavioural therapy or Stoicism teach. Now reason doesn't advocate either for indulgence of the sexual appetite, or for its prohibition but rather will proceed to identify what matters for the person - ie, why are they sexually obsessed, and what are they really looking to gain from sex that becomes all the more elusive the more or less sex they have? Now this is an individual struggle for everyone to one extent or another, and it's probably most intense when one is around 16-19 - after that age I found that it's not that relevant anymore. In either case, the most important point I have to make is that indulgence isn't any better than celibacy in such cases.So to be free from the obsession with sex that some people (but probably fewer than appears) have is certainly to be looked for. But celibacy maintained through gritted teeth, as it were, is not any kind of freedom, and maintains the obsession far more strongly than having a sexual relationship. — unenlightened
I agree to this, but then again, full life-long celibacy isn't for everyone. Furthermore, there are difficulties in practicing celibacy - people expect it (or sex) to be a cure of all problems, but it isn't.So, while celibacy could be an advantage, could be a blessing, it could also be part of a repressive system under which very well educated, hard working, devoted professed members chafed to the point of being ready to quit. — Bitter Crank
It is not for me to tell you whether you are miserable or not, or obsessed or not, or indulging in a sense of superiority or not. Or even being ruled by a fear of relationship - that is a possibility too. But comments elsewhere eventually drew me to read this thread, which I found rather sad and unenlightening, so I thought to make some contribution to the rather overheated conversation. Good luck to you in your abstinence, and there's no need to justify it to me or anyone here. — unenlightened
Or even being ruled by a fear of relationship - that is a possibility too. — unenlightened
But comments elsewhere eventually drew me to read this thread, which I found rather sad and unenlightening, so I thought to make some contribution to the rather overheated conversation. — unenlightened
Well it is important to understand yourself and what you want or desire to be honest. I've done similar to sex and to my social life, simply because most of the people I can be around I don't find sufficiently interesting or worth spending time with. But say, if you could spend time with Wittgenstein talking, would you not? Of course you would! So your problem is merely the fact that the vast majority of people around aren't at your level. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'm not saying this to suggest you're superior or they're inferior, but you just have to accept that this is who you are, and these are your desires. It's not, as some others may be telling you, that you're missing out because you're not spending time in community etc. indeed, you would be missing out if you spent time in such worthless company. You're just looking for a different sort of community, and a different sort of people than you currently find today. But that's fine - there are others like you, who are also struggling with the same problems.I have not only done this to 'sex'; but, also to my social life, and other areas of my being. — Question
Well why do you think it should bother you? Your fear is perfectly normal - you fear you'll stumble over some person who is sex-obsesssed herself and who will make your life a living hell, and pull you down into petty jealousies and the like. What's wrong with that fear? I mean who wouldn't be afraid of that if they shared your values? That fear is useful - it's keeping you away from all the bad relationships you could end up forming.Now, that is an interesting hypothesis. I suppose it can be true to some degree. Doesn't bother me though. Strange, eh? — Question
"petty" and "rather uninteresting" are value judgements. Is your life petty and rather uninteresting to YOU or is it petty and uninteresting to unenlightened? If you lived as unenlightened advocated, would you like that kind of life?It may be sad; but, it is true. And that it is true is an affirmation of my petty and rather uninteresting life, which is fine by me. — Question
is it petty and uninteresting to unenlightened? — Agustino
:s Why do you think it is derogatory? I haven't meant it to be derogatory at all. You may have not meant things that way, but clearly that's how Question took it, at least from my perspective - hence my comments.No, it isn't. If it were so, I wouldn't be talking about it. You might also notice, but seemingly haven't, that I have carefully refrained from advocating a way of life. I know we agree about a great deal on this topic, but nevertheless, please try to reign in your tiresome habit of derogatory innuendo; this is a serious matter. — unenlightened
I don't know that actually, you've certainly never expressed agreement :PI know we agree about a great deal on this topic — unenlightened
I don't know that actually — Agustino
I think I try to read as it is written. If I want to clarify something, then I will state it no? I wouldn't leave it merely as a possible way of interpreting my statements would I?Yes, you don't know it because you are argumentative and do not read carefully or charitably. — unenlightened
Well instead of denying, wouldn't it be easier to say "Umm you're mistaken about disagreeing with me there in such and such a way, because actually I agree with you in such and such a way"?This makes discussion unpleasant and unproductive, and indeed, I am too busy denying your endless straw men to leave much space to develop any expression of the common ground. — unenlightened
So to be free from the obsession with sex that some people (but probably fewer than appears) have is certainly to be looked for. — unenlightened
I mean it doesn't take much looking around to see how much attention of all kinds people pay to sex - an extraordinary amount of attention. They don't talk much about eating or drinking - but sex is a favorite topic. That certainly seems quite obsessive. Even our advertisements are full of it. — Agustino
Well you are describing a world that is different from the world as I know it. Quite possibly because of our age difference. The younger generations who are currently <40 are obsessive about sex to a large degree. I think that your generation wasn't so influenced by the media as future generations were - the effect of the media has grown tremendously with the increase in technology. If you look at today's millennials who are currently in their teens, you'll see a lot more sexual obsession than you probably saw in your own time as a teenager. I certainly do in comparison to when I was a teenager.But your friends seem to be different. Perhaps I live in a little island of rectitude, but I have been propositioned once by a woman of the streets and that aside, I cannot remember having talked about sex with anyone but Mrs un to any significant degree in twenty years, excluding the odd philosophical comment or joke that is hardly obsessive. So I speak as I find, that the folks I come across are by no means obsessed with sex, but have much more interesting things to obsess about, much to the chagrin of the media, no doubt. — unenlightened
I didn't mean to suggest the actual figure is 99% that's why I said I give the figures of 99.9% and 99.99% merely as examples to illustrate the point I was making there. But I do believe a majority (meaning more than 50%) amongst the younger generations are sexually obsessed. At least this has been my experience so far. We as a society though - as illustrated by our culture, what we see on television etc. are definitely sexually obsessed though >:OHowever many caveats I make to my own experience, I cannot arrive at a figure close to 99%. — unenlightened
Yes, but being interested in money :P I always live close to that environment, even though I'm not exactly part of it anymore, and since I switched my field, I work in IT and for myself, nowadays my clients are much smaller businesses. I never understood why people interested in money are interested in sex - this hasn't always been the case, it's a very recent phenomenon. The likes of Rockefeller back in the Standard Oil days were definitely not the playboys of the time... These folks are interested in money because it gets them sex, instead of being interested in money for its other uses - seems quite stupid to me.Ah, great minds! I see you have just posted about the urban rural thing.
I would suggest that the corporate environment is a place where folks conform their talk to the corporate needs, which are to promote sexual insecurity in order to sell more make-up, room fragrances to cover, I mean eliminate, the smell that you cannot smell because you've gone "nose-blind", or the kind of car that the babes will love you for ( it also magically eliminates traffic). — unenlightened
Okay I agree here.So I agree with you that there is a lot of pressure, particularly on the young, who are most ignorant and susceptible, and I agree too that there is probably an increase in sexual obsession. — unenlightened
People are terribly conformist, and the media work hard to convince us that we should be wanting grab women's pussies if we are real men. But actually, few of us do. Politics, sport, work, money holidays, food, even children and pets dominate my interactions with folks both face to face and on the net; sex is hardly mentioned, for all its pervasive presence in the papers and television and film. But your friends seem to be different. Perhaps I live in a little island of rectitude, but I have been propositioned once by a woman of the streets and that aside, I cannot remember having talked about sex with anyone but Mrs un to any significant degree in twenty years, excluding the odd philosophical comment or joke that is hardly obsessive. So I speak as I find, that the folks I come across are by no means obsessed with sex, but have much more interesting things to obsess about, much to the chagrin of the media, no doubt. — unenlightened
I find it somewhat paradoxical that I (as a not trained psychotherapist) would have to make the case to a trained psychotherapist that sex makes the world go round. — Question
The only reason why, I would hypothesise, that there is a disconnect between the individual and society is that the individual has constraints which he must play under - for example, he can't just have sex with any other woman because then he'll be considered a promiscuous man and less women would be interested in him. But - if he could somehow remove those constraints - he would most certainly give into his lusts. If, for example, he had sufficient power, such that women would be guaranteed to surround him anyways. So the individual has reasons to fake decency. But in culture, there is no reason to fake anymore. There the fantasies of the individual are allowed to run free. Sexual advertising works because people salivate like dirty dogs watching it. They fantasise about it day in and day out, otherwise why would they advertise like this? Because it works! They know that secretly this is what most people want.what the hell is wrong with society if there is a disconnect between the individual and social 'operant' behavior? — Question
Ehmm this sounds kind of fishy - especially since you compare it to eating and breathing. What do you mean? If I don't eat and breathe I die. If I don't have sex, I also die? :-O This is what I mean when I say that you sometimes sound exactly like the media, at least to me. It seems - and I may be wrong, but your language sometimes certainly gives me this impression - that you have adopted some of their principles.Ok, let me be clear; sexuality is important, and if it didn't have importance to the psyche, the species would go extinct. The same can be said of eating and breathing, but it does not entail that everyone is obsessed. — unenlightened
This is interesting. I agree that the media and business interests want you to be sexually obsessed. But the only way they can pressure you into it is because they know that this is who, at heart, you really are. If you aren't like this, then they wouldn't be able to pressure you (but most people are - hence why they use the strategy). The reason why most people are pressured is precisely this. If they weren't pressured, they'd close that damn TV and never watch any movie again on it. But they don't do this. For example - I never watch TV (and because it's full of sex is one of the many reasons why I don't watch it). Most folks aren't like me. Sure someone can avoid being sexually obsessed if they are like me and don't open that TV. But if they are people who open the TV - they almost can't avoid being sexually obsessed because they see sex everywhere, so their brain will naturally think that sex is some very important God that must be worshipped, and life without it becomes unthinkable.But even such a distortion, though foolish and unnecessary, does not amount to an obsession. It is the dearest wish of the media to convince you that everyone is getting it or thinking about it all the time, and if you are not, you need to buy - something or other.
It is not true and you are being manipulated. Resist!
I might start a thread on all this sometime, but this one is long and rambling enough, so I think I'll stop here. — unenlightened
Now, the media are not the psyche. — unenlightened
Suffice to say that science deals in objectivity, and when you study people as objects you learn only how to manipulate them. — unenlightened
It is not true and you are being manipulated. Resist! — unenlightened
I think that, to be honest, the media actually are in some way the psyche. They are a representation of the psyche of most people - of their hidden wants and desires. They wouldn't have any influence if they weren't... the media must give people what they want in order to earn from them.Such blasphemy! How can you NOT watch your favorite puppet regurgitate some narrative that was passed down to him from the 'aliens' at the very top? — Question
I think that, to be honest, the media actually are in some way the psyche. They are a representation of the psyche of most people - of their hidden wants and desires. — Agustino
Sexual advertising works because people salivate like dirty dogs watching it. They fantasise about it day in and day out, otherwise why would they advertise like this? Because it works! They know that secretly this is what most people want. — Agustino
No doubt, but it's precisely their sexual habits, that to a large extent alienate them one from the other - which is where I come in with all my points. The real desire is for intimacy - therefore the sexual desire must be subjugated to the desire for intimacy, and then all will be well.Rather than people being OBSESSED with sex, I think people LONG FOR warmth and sharing (intimacy). — Bitter Crank
Yeah I share your position, except that I also add sex to the mix. For example my wife cheating on me alienates her from me. This is just an inevitable event - part and parcel of the cheating itself. So sexual habits do - whether you like it or not - play a role in alienation. How many couples and relationships break up because of sexual habits? A lot.Here is a fundamental difference between your thinking and mine: Sex isn't the means by which people are alienated from each other. What is alienating is the abrasive competition for status, access to status, and goods; what is alienating is the meaninglessness that most people find in their work life; what is alienating is locating the meaning of individuals in their capacity to consume, or their low worth because they can not consume (enough stuff). — Bitter Crank
Rather than people being OBSESSED with sex, I think people LONG FOR warmth and sharing (intimacy). — Bitter Crank
Yeah I share your position, except that I also add sex to the mix. For example my wife cheating on me alienates her from me. This is just an inevitable event - part and parcel of the cheating itself. So sexual habits do - whether you like it or not - play a role in alienation. How many couples and relationships break up because of sexual habits? A lot. — Agustino
the state or experience of being isolated from a group or an activity to which one should belong or in which one should be involved: unemployment may generate a sense of political alienation.
• loss or lack of sympathy; estrangement: public alienation from bureaucracy.
• a feeling of disconnection from the larger society; of life being meaningless (whereas it one time had seemed meaningful; purposelessness where one previously had felt purposeful
• (in Marxist theory) a condition of workers in a capitalist economy, resulting from a lack of identity with the products of their labor and a sense of being controlled or exploited by economic forces.
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