• TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    Murder is usually regarded as the quintessential example of a wrong act and a harmful act. It is usually regarded as being as bad or worse than acts such as rape, mutilation, putting a hot poker on someone’s chest, and long term imprisonment. But, I have really started to question this common perception on murder. While I think that murder could be regarded as significantly harmful and that could reasonably imply that it is significantly wrong, it’s hard for me to see why it would be considered worse than terrible acts like rape and mutilation. This is because the convincing explanations that are usually given for why murder is wrong do not seem to make a convincing case that murder is extremely wrong while the explanations that convincingly imply that murder is extremely wrong do not seem to be plausible at all. I will make a list of the most popular explanations for the wrongness of murder and explain why I either completely reject the explanation or why I think the explanation implies that murder is not that bad of an action. So, here’s a list of explanations:

    1. The Deprivation Account: Some people would say that a big part of what makes murder wrong is that it deprives the person who is murdered of the benefits of life that she would have received if she wasn’t murdered. This account typically makes a distinction between depriving a particular person of a benefit and simply preventing a benefit from occurring to an unspecified value recipient. This is why the proponents of the account would believe that murder is worse than intentionally preventing someone from being born. Personally, I do not except such a distinction. I don’t think it matters if there is a particular person who has a benefit removed or if it’s just a benefit removed from no one in particular. Of course, many would find the implication that preventing a birth could be worse than murder to be absurd. But, it’s worth noting that the deprivation account also has some implications that I think a reasonable could consider absurd. For example, doesn’t it seem absurd to anyone that the removal of a benefit would be far less wrong or bad just because we can’t identify a specific victim of the benefit removal? It seems to me like that should be irrelevant as long as we can identify that there was a benefit that would have occurred if not for the actions of an alleged wrongdoer.

    Though, one could argue under my view that preventing birth should be considered as wrong as murder typically is considered but I’m inclined to favor the viewpoint that murder should be viewed more like preventing birth typically gets viewed since I’m more of a pessimist about life. Though, even an optimist should probably consider birth prevention and murder to be fairly minor harms unless he thinks that the benefits of life overwhelmingly justify the harms. Even if one accepts a deprivation account where a specific victim must be identified then they should also consider a good aspect of death in that it alleviates any future harm you would have to experience if you haven’t died an earlier death. Given this, I think it’s hard to argue that murder is a great wrong because of the deprivation that it produces.

    2. Preference-based theory: Some people might argue that murder is a major wrong because people have a strong preference to continue living their life to the point that they would even be willing to have sex with someone that threatens to kill them if they don’t comply. I think this explanation for the wrongness of murder could be challenged by mentioning the fact that death is inevitable. Given that everyone will die one day, we cannot do anything to prevent anyone’s preference to not die from being violated. If someone murders another person, they are violating a preference of that person that will eventually bound to get violated anyways. Normally, we don’t consider hastening a negative outcome that would have occurred anyways to be a major harm. You might say in response that a murderer violates a preference that his victim has to specifically not die on the particular day that she dies, but under this specification, the preference-based theory just seems to be a deprivation account and it seems to contain the same problems that the deprivation account contains.

    3. Grief-based theory: Some people might think that murder is a great wrong because it causes the loved ones of a murdered person to grieve. But, grief is also an inevitable part of any close relationship between 2 people that will last a lifetime. The only thing that might be changed by murder is who the grieving party happens to be. For example, if someone murders a young kid, then this will cause his parents to grieve and that’s bad. But, if that kid wasn’t murdered then he would likely have to grieve the death of his parents one day. While we might say that grief of losing your child is usually greater, could we really say that the child’s murder made things much worse in terms of grief?

    4. Religious theories: Some people might have religious reasons to be opposed to murder but it’s worth noting that religious texts almost never seem to specify that murder is more wrong than other wrong things like stealing, adultery, and lying. In fact, I once heard a Christian pastor say that all sins are equally wrong in the eyes of God and that we should not assume that sins like lying to someone are less wrong than murder.

    5. Kantian theories: Kantians also rarely seem to have a specific argument that murder is more wrong than other wrong acts.

    While there may be more explanations given for the wrongness of murder, I think I covered the ones that are most commonly mentioned. I would love to hear some polite and constructive counter arguments to my claims and to start a pretty good dialogue.
  • Outlander
    2.1k
    If I, as someone smaller than you, approached you with a knife and said I was going to slash your throat and tried to. Would you stop me? Why or why not? You have your answer there.
  • Olivier5
    6.2k
    So you'd you rather be murdered than raped?
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460

    Yes, I think death is to be preferred over any significant form of torture. I will die one day anyways and I don’t understand why it would be much worse to die later. I don’t have to experience the suffering that comes with rape though because that suffering is not inevitable like death happens to be. Now, if we had an opportunity to live forever this might change the equation though
  • Olivier5
    6.2k
    You speak lightly of these matters. I wish you will never have to chose between your life and the integrity of your anus., but if you ever have to, I recommend keeping your life.
  • Skeptic
    40
    You may notice that all arguments that you mentioned are single person centered. I don't think that it's a good way to find the objective answer.

    I think that main murder dilemma arise a bit higher when you consider society interests. In some sense it was started by humanism or even religions and they succeeded. Main assumption was that people's ability to kill depend on their experience during growing up. So if someone grows in peaceful environment he will have strong psychological barrier to harm anyone. In hurst environment situation will be the opposite.

    In that sense every murder is a destabilizing factor and it is very harmful for society in the long run. Several decade ago such stories were very popular in the literature. Even today there are some nations where revenge may wipe out entire families or even more.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460

    I don’t think I speak lightly of murder. I just think suffering has a far greater degree of value significance than having a longer life span. I would love to know why you would consider preserving one’s life span to be a more worthy pursuit if you can be as kind as to share your reasoning with me. I can give you a fairly quick answer for why I think suffering matters more: you don’t have to value your life but you are forced to disvalue suffering. If someone claims that they don’t think there’s anything bad about suffering then I would speculate that they must not have a capacity to suffer. My past experience with suffering seems to prove its badness. I can’t say the same thing about death.
  • Skeptic
    40
    It is usually regarded as being as bad or worse than acts such as rape, mutilation, putting a hot poker on someone’s chest, and long term imprisonment.TheHedoMinimalist

    And again, from point of view of society and religion it should be clearer why nonlethal harm is preferable even if it has devastating consequences for the specific individual or his entire life
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460

    I would like to ask you some questions about your post. Please do not take these questions as a criticism of position since I don’t feel I understand your position well enough to criticize.

    1. You mentioned that you thought that humanism and various religions have succeeded. By what standard have they succeeded and why do you feel that this standard is appropriate at judging the success of a set of ideas. I don’t mean to say that these sets of ideas are not successful since I tend to analyze religious and humanist ideas separately rather than as some kind of combined package or a united ideology.

    2. My understanding is that your primary concern is that a more lax attitude towards murder will be instrumental in promoting the prevalence of vigilante justice and revenge. Rape and mutilation also seem to encourage revenge if the punishment is seen as being too weak. What I was suggesting partially by my OP was that a father should be more willing to engage in vigilante justice if the rapist of his daughter receives a light punishment then if the murderer of his daughter receives a light punishment. I’m kinda struggling to understand why murder has a greater destabilizing effect here if there doesn’t seem to be any necessity to regard murder as being worse than an act like rape. I would love it if you can elaborate more on this topic.
  • Vessuvius
    117
    It seems to me that the imperative of not hastening by intent, the death of another, should be viewed on a societal scale; to be seen as a consequence of the macro, rather than justified by the negative grievance of any one person, or group, that is otherwise sure to emerge. This, is after all a longstanding need of human-kind, and even most other species, I would argue; to be free to live under the assumption that excepting natural causes, such life will continue. To which we have, as a product of our biology, an inclination, both in terms of the individual, and society as a whole. There exist no grounds by which this point can be disputed, and that we favor causes of order, as opposed to that which lies contrary hereto, and with anarchy being the alternative course, were we not to seek to exact punishment upon those who stand in contravention of this rule, further credence is given to this line of thought. The assignment of moral value to the preservation of life, arises as a result of those many dispositions toward increased fitness in which most forms of life often share, and whether they are cognizant of their influence or not carries little relevance; we in contrast, owing to our higher abilities of perception, and analysis, as compared to all other species' now extant, are subject to the forcing out of a process of rationalization, through which to give some more fundamental basis to our actions as they are directed toward the end of such preservation. That we don't recognize it as ad-hoc, and conceived along the lines of a more primitive, and insubstantial type of behavior, is to maintain the supposed primacy of these rationalizations themselves. On a separate account, absent any consideration of moral-goodness, structures of power which have long been established are prone toward punishing those who indeed are guilty of taking life, to resist the transition toward civil decay, and thus their own possible removal. The distinction that you speak of, between acts of this sort, and those which are based instead in the mutilative, as well as the difference between the degrees of their own perceived 'badness' is likely due to the localization of harm in the one case, which applies with respect to mutilation of body, and that of execution; the latter of which, if seen as permitted by the majority, grows in its prevalence, and leads toward a disorder that is complete in its effect, while also entailing other such acts in its path, with the former included in this collection. Hence, we find murder to be the most reprehensible of things, regardless of whether we can claim, truthfully, to be familiar with the reasons just stated on a level of conscious thought.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460


    Damn, your writing style reminds me of Thomas Jefferson lol. It was quite elegant and pretty. They should hire you to write presidential speeches. I don’t think I understand your point of view well enough to comment on it so I would like to ask some clarifying questions instead:

    You mentioned that you believe that there is a need for mankind to be free to live under the assumption that they are free from death except from natural causes. I’m having a hard time understanding why a death from natural causes should or would be viewed more positively by someone. Do many people even care about the cause of their death? I can kind of understand that one might be selected by evolution to wish to avoid death before one has time to reproduce. But, why would an old woman care if she dies from murder or from natural causes?

    I also would like to mention that I don’t think that murder is completely ok. We should still punish murderers. I just think it’s not as bad as significant forms of torture. So, I think torture is more deserving of punishment. On that note, I must ask: doesn’t torture have just as much of a destabilizing effect on society as murder? I’m failing to understand why it wouldn’t.
  • Olivier5
    6.2k
    So you are saying that suicide is the long term solution to all short-term problems.
  • Skeptic
    40
    By what standard have they succeededTheHedoMinimalist

    By succeeded I meant that they were finally become able to significantly change humans psychology and attitude to the fact of murdering. Religions tried to achieve this goal many hundreds of years without luck but last couple of centuries were very different in that sense. It's difficult to say what was the main reason of such change, I personally tend to think about medicine actually.

    Regarding standards, there are many approaches to measure impact. You can measure crime rate, attitude to death or even just death rate. More interesting measurement is the fraction of society that can murder without been psychologically injured.

    My understanding is that your primary concern is that a more lax attitude towards murder will be instrumental in promoting the prevalence of vigilante justice and revengeTheHedoMinimalist

    Not exactly. There are many factors and I just mentioned the simplest one. Society is the system and it has many system effects. Most dangerous are psychological changes and attitude to death. That's why many topics are just forbidden for public discussions (at least our country has some). I don't think that it's too hard to see possible consequences of such changes. At least fast growth is incompatible with instability that can be caused by ability of people to kill easily.

    a father should be more willing to engage in vigilante justice if the rapist of his daughter receives a light punishment then if the murderer of his daughter receives a light punishmentTheHedoMinimalist

    In some sense I agree with you, I just wanted to show the possible reasoning behind the difference that we can see around.
  • Olivier5
    6.2k
    a father should be more willing to engage in vigilante justice if the rapist of his daughter receives a light punishment then if the murderer of his daughter receives a light punishmentTheHedoMinimalist

    Any father I know would be happy that his daughter is alive.
  • Skeptic
    40
    I just think it’s not as bad as significant forms of tortureTheHedoMinimalist

    There is no way to support such approach logically. Death is the termination state so you can't have something with more weight. The only logical way is to make them equal. Otherwise you will left possibility for rapist to kill his victim in a court to mitigate the punishment...

    As usually, there are contradictions on different layers. It's understandable in case of specific individual but impossible in case of society.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    Society is the system and it has many system effects. Most dangerous are psychological changes and attitude to death. That's why many topics are just forbidden for public discussions (at least our country has some). I don't think that it's too hard to see possible consequences of such changes. At least fast growth is incompatible with instability that can be caused by ability of people to kill easily.Skeptic

    So, my understanding of what you are saying is that perhaps human extinction can be a possible consequence of a society that has a less negative attitude of murder. I assumed that mainly because you mentioned the ability that we have to kill people very easily and nuclear weapons is always the first thing that comes to mind regarding that subject matter for me. Given our nuclear capabilities and myriad of other potential ways to destroy mankind, it seems like you could argue that having a more lax view on murder could potentially add fuel to the fire to our destructive potential more so than a more lax attitude towards rape or mutilation. Would you say that this is one of the biggest global concerns around there being more lax attitudes towards murder?
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    Otherwise you will left possibility fo rapist to kill his victim in a court to mitigate the punishment...Skeptic

    I have not considered that possibility. That would kind of be a convenient way to get your prison sentence reduced for raping someone in a world where murder is punished less. I’ll have think about that a little more. I’m gonna head to sleep for now :yawn:
  • Olivier5
    6.2k
    I have not considered that possibility. That would kind of be a convenient way to get your prison sentence reduced for raping someone in a world where murder is punished lessTheHedoMinimalist
    Imagine you have been raped by a big guy who overpowered you and, your know, invaded your intimacy. Suppose he let you live rather than kill you afterward. Let's further assume that it was quite painful for you. Months or years later, he's been caught by the cops and you are attending his trial. So you are given the following alternative, as in the above conversation: either you live and ensure that your rapist is punished harshly, or you allow him to kill you right there in the courtroom, so that his sentence would be lightened.

    What choice would you make?

    Consider that you have already been raped at this point, that this harm has already been done to you, and that no amount of further harm done to you will attenuate any harm previously done to you.

    Consider also that you have no interest in lightening your rapist's sentence.

    What choice would you make, as a rapist victim?

    You see? It's facile to troll about armchair philosophy on murder and rape. But until you see things from the victim's point of view, you're just making noise with your mouth.
  • Skeptic
    40
    Would you say that this is one of the biggest global concerns around there being more lax attitudes towards murder?TheHedoMinimalist

    With you OP in mind it's difficult to say what is worse, complete extinction or agony of endless surviving

    In a bit more real world scenario I would rather said that a live person can be useful for society even in case of serious injury. The similar difference can be found in the religion... The next level of reasoning is the political instability. Protests may look very different in case of different mentality... and so on, with the serious degradation or even extinction at the end.

    Actually it worth mention that we are on the middle of the humanization process. It means that things will change seriously later on. For example, right now, nonlethal harm is gaining more and more criminal weight.
  • Yohan
    679
    I think it depends on what a person wants.
    -If someone (genuinely) wants to be murdered, then it's not (at least not necessarily) immoral to murder them. (Let's say they are old and sick and have already lived a fulfilling life, as an example).
    -Someone is middle aged, lived a decent life up to that point, their kids are already grown up, their divorced, of average to below average health. They have a moderate preference to live than to die, but isn't so attached either way. They would rather be murdered painlessly than endure any great hardship in life.
    -Someone is young, full of great hopes and dreams, and would rather suffer any great hardship than lose their life. They would even prefer to be raped or tortured than to die. For such, murdering them may be the worse thing you could do.

    I don't mean to show age bias. An older person could value their life or be as valuable to society as a younger person, or more. However, I do think it can be argued that murder is worse or less worse depending upon how many days of life one has deprived someone of(though I don't think its the only factor) so that, if you have a 20 year old and an 80 year old who both equally value their life and are r equal in their contributions to society, and assuming the 80 year old would die sooner, it could be argued that it would be more immoral to kill the younger person.

    Edit: As a side note, I think people tend to over-value existing. What matters is depth of living, not just being existing. Many of us are already living as if were mostly dead already, and would prefer to live mostly out of a fear of dying, rather than of genuinely loving life...I'm one of such people, unfortunately, to an extent
  • Vessuvius
    117


    The beauty of viewing these arguments in the manner that I suggested lies in that personal concerns may be discounted at the start, with any one case in particular, being generalized to a far broader scale in how it is analyzed. This holds merit for a number of reasons, one of which, you yourself gave expression for, by means of your earlier response; that the cause of another's death doesn't matter insofar as it is restricted under the field of one's own consideration, given that after the fact, nothing further can occur with respect to the life in question. What in this instance is deserving of priority then, are those forms of behavior which emerged collectively in turn; this, encompassing the reactions of all others within society, or some part of which, to the outcome just mentioned; Death. And more to the point, whether its presentation had in its time been an expected thing, or otherwise sudden in onset, and consequent to no natural cause. This is where the relevance of that distinction between the character thereof, as being either natural, or of opposite meaning, draws its power from. It is this which serves to determine, also, whether the overlying sentiments consist in righteous indignation, or grief is all that dominates, and nothing more. When there exists an implication of fault, and an end which took place much too soon, this emotive structure becomes directed, and thus assumes for itself a purpose. To my mind, no other circumstance beyond this better illustrates why our attentions should be affixed to the macro. Individual patterns of behavior, contrarily, if seen in isolation, are too varied in their appearance to lend any insight into these principles of social evolution, and even less so, are able to render clear what utility they afford.
  • Down The Rabbit Hole
    530
    Actually, Alex O'Connor (CosmicSkeptic on YouTube) is to release a video on why he believe death is not bad for those that die. Apparently he is delaying its release due to the sensitivities with the pandemic.

    You have done a good job of tackling some standard arguments against your proposition. Others have raised the point that if murder was normalised there would be negative knock-on effects. Maybe I am missing something, but surely the knock-on effects of normalising causing suffering, would rise equally.
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    Questions like these can be good to re-examine our assumptions. However, I'm not sure the point you're trying to make here. You're not claiming that murder isn't wrong. You're saying, "Its not as wrong as X". You also claim its not a "major wrong". What is a major wrong? I think this needs to be defined as well.

    Still, lets look at some of the arguments.

    1. Deprivation.

    Deprivation applies to most wrongs. Stealing deprives one of things. Rape deprives one of sexual choice. Each of these deprivations though can be recovered from. Murder, cannot. As there is potential to better oneself in almost every wrong except murder, I can't see these wrongs being greater than murder.

    If comparing to abortion, I suppose you would have to classify if it was murder, or something else.

    2. Preference-based theory

    How about we call this, "Agency of choice". Again, all wrongs are the removal of choice from a person. Murder is when you deprive someone of their life against their consent for some personal gain. Again, all other wrongs can be recovered from to some extent except murder. If someone chooses to die, this is not murder. So someone may prefer death to a particular existence. When we choose for them, that is when it is an evil.

    3. Grief-based theory

    We have grief for those who have been deprived of choice, means, and life. Again, all of these griefs have the potential to resolve themselves into something better, except murder. I think we see a pattern forming here. It appears that the deprivation of potential betterment is really why murder is such a heinous crime.

    4. Religious theories

    The Aztecs used to call a specific type of murder a "sacrifice". I don't think a religion alone can justify it. Perhaps if we addressed the underlying justification, we might get somewhere with this. At a shallow level, a religion can justify murder as much as justify not murdering, so it can't be a good basis of judgement.

    5. Kantian theories

    Meh, I don't find Kant's ideology useful or logical.
  • Skeptic
    40
    all of these griefs have the potential to resolve themselves into something betterPhilosophim

    I have only one question after reading your arguments, why does euthanasia exist in this world? Maybe your missed something?
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    I have only one question after reading your arguments, why does euthanasia exist in this world? Maybe your missed something?Skeptic

    Lets take a look at Wikipedia's definition of Euthanasia.

    "Euthanasia is categorized in different ways, which include voluntary, non-voluntary, or involuntary:[6]

    Voluntary euthanasia is legal in some countries.
    Non-voluntary euthanasia (patient's consent unavailable) is illegal in all countries.
    Involuntary euthanasia (without asking consent or against the patient's will) is also illegal in all countries and is usually considered murder."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia

    In all cases, Euthanasia without consent is considered a crime. Murder is taking someone's life without consent for persona benefit. It could be gleaned that Euthanasia without consent is considered murder.

    From Brittanica:
    "Euthanasia, also called mercy killing, act or practice of painlessly putting to death persons suffering from painful and incurable disease or incapacitating physical disorder or allowing them to die by withholding treatment or withdrawing artificial life-support measures. "
    britannica.com/topic/euthanasia

    In the case of "acceptable" euthanasia, it is understood that the person is suffering from something which has no potential to improve. Yet this is not a mere ailment, but something considered typically debilitating and an excessive degradation in quality of life, possibly to the point of not being able to survive without assistance. Regarding my above points, the lack of potential improvement seems to fit in with the trend of something being terrible.

    So with consent, I do not believe Euthanasia would be considered murder. Grey lines start to come into affect when a person is unable to give permission, but a close friend or relative believes the person would give permission if they could.
  • Skeptic
    40
    I just tried to show that there are many different cases and not all of them have the potential to resolve themselves into something better. And it looks like your arguments missed such cases completely.
  • Olivier5
    6.2k
    sorry, pocket post...
  • ThePhilosopher1
    5
    One of the features that define “modernity” is the limitation of individual consciousness. From the more “exact” sciences, which denied knowledge of the things themselves, to the arts, which made nihilism their brush, pencil, sound and inspiration. Of course, the first laboratory of ideas would not be left out: politics. And so, the twentieth century gave birth to its triplets: fascism, nazism and communism — unfortunately not aborted — , which turn human lives into mere obstacles to their messianic future. For, as Viktor Frankl already concluded, if human life is just a random combination of molecules, it doesn’t hurt to kill a few hundred millions of them, am I right? I mean, it is no coincidence that the French Revolution killed ten times more people in one year than the Spanish Inquisition in four centuries. Genocide is the natural state of “enlightened” modernity.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    In a bit more real world scenario I would rather said that a live person can be useful for society even in case of serious injury.Skeptic

    Well, some people can be useful for society after a serious injury but I would say most will end taking more resources from society than they will give to society. For example, if I got my arm mutilated, then I would probably would go on disabilities and avoid working(assuming that I still decide to continue living life under those circumstances.). In the case of rape, I would likely be traumatized and that wouldn’t be an ideal mindset for making society better.

    The next level of reasoning is the political instability. Protests may look very different in case of different mentality... and so on, with the serious degradation or even extinction at the end.Skeptic

    Do you mean to say that protests would become more lethal if we had a more lax attitude towards murder?

    Actually it worth mention that we are on the middle of the humanization process. It means that things will change seriously later on. For example, right now, nonlethal harm is gaining more and more criminal weight.Skeptic

    Is non-lethal harm really receiving more attention? I suppose you can make that case with rape and the Me Too movement making it gain more attention. It’s hard to comment on the change in attitude for mutilation and stereotypical forms of torture because those things are sufficiently rare in our society. Though, one of the non-lethal harms that I have mentioned in the OP is long term imprisonment. It seems like just about everyone would consider that to be a more humane punishment for crime than the death penalty. I actually tend to think the death penalty is a more humane punishment myself. Though, someone holding my viewpoint could still argue that long term imprisonment is a better punishment because criminals deserve a harsher punishment.

    On a final note, I would like to talk about the concern surrounding a rapist killing his rape victim in court to receive a lighter prison sentence. Realistically, I think this should be considered pretty overwhelming evidence that he really committed the rape and thus he would probably get charged with both rape and murder. In addition, I think most rapists would still have a bigger incentive to keep their victim alive because a dead body will likely get found and they usually investigate if it got raped before hand(at least that’s how it appears on tv shows like CSI:SVU). On the other hand, surviving victims of rape rarely report their victims so the rapist is probably less likely to get caught if he just lets the victim live. Though, it might be the case that in a society where rape is considered worse than murder, victims of rape will report their rapists more frequently. Another solution we might have to this problem is to specifically give a higher prison sentence for murder committed to prevent the investigation of more serious crimes.
  • Philosophim
    2.6k


    I just tried to show that there are many different cases and not all of them have the potential to resolve themselves into something better. And it looks like your arguments missed such cases completely.Skeptic

    All I did was answer your question as presented to me. If you have specific criticisms you would like to discuss, feel free to point them out.
  • Skeptic
    40
    I would probably would go on disabilities and avoid workingTheHedoMinimalist

    There are still some benefits for society but they are mostly psychological. There is always a tradeoff between aggression and compassion. In a long run such support may be much cheaper.

    Do you mean to say that protests would become more lethal if we had a more lax attitude towards murder?TheHedoMinimalist

    I meant that lethal aggression has much higher psychological impact on people around, and I don't mean direct relatives here. In general such atmosphere will push people to be more aggressive. Even without direct immediate lethal context it may cause political disaster.

    he would probably get charged with both rape and murder.TheHedoMinimalist

    Good point, the only thing is left is the way of punishment. Don't want see 1984 in reality :fear:
    I like your points but according to the reaction on your posts Seneca isn't popular any more
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