I am quite interested in pretheoretical conscious experience. In fact, I taught you how to use this word, remember? — Olivier5
It means that both Janus' seeing red cups, and my seeing red cups always always always includes red cups. — creativesoul
How do we arrive at the need for "qualia" from here? Is the notion just being used in a sort of closeted subjectivism stance? — creativesoul
But that's the point of inverted spectra: "our verbal behavior will match even if we experience entirely different subjective colors". — Luke
Do you think Morse code emerged naturally? Can you see the difference between the way Morse code emerged and the way the genetic code emerged? — Daemon
I know that both experiences include red cups and people seeing red cups in whatever way they appear to them, each and every time.
— creativesoul
Fantastic. Thanks for clarifying. That's exactly what I meant when I said "The experience of red cups includes what people call red cups" but I can see why that would have been confusing.
That's why it's not a problem for someone(like me) to make both claims you're asking about.
— creativesoul
Isaac or Banno would say that both claims are identical. — khaled
That's exactly what I meant when I said "The experience of red cups includes what people call red cups" but I can see why that would have been confusing. — khaled
No idea. — Olivier5
I don't understand your motivation in wanting to say that Morse code and the genetic code are equivalent. — Daemon
Here's the relevant bits — creativesoul
I see no difference with my way of using this word. — Olivier5
"Pre-theoretical" means... ...stuff you do in practice without thinking about it in theory. Like when you watch large packs of birds fly. You are not necessarily theorizing about yourself watching birds fly, or even about how the birds fly. You may simply watch them. You may wonder why they fly so high or turn so suddenly, all as one, but it's not a research program yet, more a wonder, a question. You may start to reason that this is peculiar and beautiful, and start filming the phenomenon with your cellphone. You are still not theorizing much. You are just recording whatever you can of the event, thinking your friends will like this.
You may theorize latter, for instance if I ask you why you looked at those damn birds for so long. — Olivier5
I recognize my own take, yes. — Olivier5
In order for something(conscious experience) to count as being pre-theoretical, it must exist in it's(their) entirety prior to being named and subsequently described. — creativesoul
How come then that the word “red” preceded any understanding of light? And the word “bitter” preceded any atomic theory? I don’t see how these words could be coding for these properties as that implies that you need to know the properties to be able to use the words coding for them (just as you need to understand what altitude is to be able to read the map), but you don’t. — khaled
I find no need for qualia though, whereas you seem to want to preserve it. So, something is different. — creativesoul
I don't personally believe in an afterlife, but I do think Chalmers, Nagel, McGinn, Block, etc. present more convincing arguments than Dennett, Churchland, Frankish, etc. — Marchesk
Yes. — khaled
there are parts of language, things we do with words, for which the meaning is not given by the referent, but is instead found in the role these utterances and scribbles play in our day to day lives? — Banno
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