We also say of some people that they are transparent to us. It is, however, important as regards this observation that one human being can be a complete enigma to another. We learn this when we come into a strange country with entirely strange traditions; and, what is more, even given a mastery of the country's language. We do not understand the people. (And not because of not knowing what they are saying to themselves.) We cannot find our feet with them. — Witt, PI p. 223
'What is internal is hidden from us'. — Witt, PI p. 223
If I see someone is writhing in pain with evident cause, I do not think: all the same, his feelings are hidden from me. — Witt, PI p. 223
'I cannot know what is going on in him' is above all a picture. It is the convincing expression of a conviction. It does not give the reasons for the conviction. They are not readily accessible.
If a lion could talk, we could not understand him. — Witt, PI p. 223
If I see someone is writhing in pain with evident cause, I do not think: all the same, his feelings are hidden from me. — Witt, PI p. 223
I will argue that it is essential to put this sentence in the context in which it was written to see what makes it meaningful ( — Antony Nickles
You may be right that the sentence needs to be read in context, but I don't understand the context. — Daemon
All this would be guessing at thoughts; and the fact that it does not actually happen does not make thought any more hidden than the unperceived physical proceedings. — Antony Nickles
If I see someone writhing in pain with evident cause I do not think: all the same, his feelings are hidden from me. — Antony Nickles
"I cannot know what is going on in him" is above all a picture. It is the convincing expression of a conviction. It does not give the reasons for the conviction. They are not readily accessible. — Antony Nickles
Antithesis: What does not actually happen? — Mww
I ask a guy to assign meaning to a language he doesn’t understand mandates a mutually perceived physical proceeding… There is nothing to hide so it being hidden is superfluous. — Mww
Still, it must be the case that he [the other whose thoughts we are trying to guess] thinks something — Mww
…the thought… must have happened, and is only hidden from me, to whom it did not happen, but cannot be hidden from the guy from whom I’m asking a meaning be given. — Mww
Given the evident cause, I immediately grant him the objective reality of being hurt — Mww
I can and I do think, mediately, all the same, his feelings are necessarily hidden from me, in that the causality of his representations are not contained in the physical representations of them. — Mww
Antithesis:
If I know, or if I do not know, something, I must have reasons. And they must be accessible to me, otherwise the knowledge is quite empty. — Mww
Knowledge can be defined as a judgement valid because its ground is objectively necessary. That which goes on in him is subjective in him, hence inaccessible objectively in me, therefore I am justified in claiming I cannot know of it. These are my readily accessible reasons derivable from a definition. — Mww
A conviction can be defined as a judgement valid because its ground is objectively sufficient. I am certainly authorized to say what goes on in him is objectively sufficient, under the condition that he and I are both the same kind of rational intelligence, in that I allow him the same ground for his as I require for mine.* * * “I need reasons for my convictions if I cannot arrive at knowledge from conviction alone. — Mww
Hi Antony, I've given it my best shot and got nowhere really. I respect your wish to have a particular kind of discussion, so I'm going to express my views about Wittgenstein in a new thread. — Daemon
Maybe try not to think of it so much as an argument with a thesis as a reading to put you in a certain perspective to a certain history of philosophy (particularly positivism). Maybe start with trying to see the purpose of the lion-quote on this page: as a fact to contrast against the rest of the paragraphs (within all the possibilities it could be taken or used--within its 'grammar' Witt would say, or the 'sense' of it used here), and then work backwards, as the ripple-effects begin with that sentence and go deeper, contrasted to other mis-readings.I've read it all twice and thought about it. You may be right that the sentence needs to be read in context, but I don't understand the context. — Daemon
" 'I cannot know what is going on in him' is above all a picture. It is the convincing expression of a conviction. It does not give the reasons for the conviction. They are not readily accessible."
The "cannot" here I strongly impress upon you to find a way to see is in contrast to the "could not" in the lion sentence. ("If a lion could talk, we could not understand him.")
As in (placing the phrasing in parallel structure): 'Now HERE [with the lion] we COULD NOT understand him'--as in, it is impossible, a fact (see ** below)--but with the person saying they 'CANNOT know' another person, this is a conviction--a decision or firm belief. [The ’quotes’ are only a re-phrasing of Witt.]
And so we CAN (as opposed to the lion) know what is “going on in him” (though see *** below), and saying we cannot is a conviction, a belief (in this example, in a particular picture; roughly, that meaning is tied to an idea). Apart from just the conviction in the picture though, Witt is making a point that we are responsible in how we treat the other. It is an ethical argument, not (merely) an epistemological one. The conviction is a person's choice not to ACCEPT what is going on in the other, as opposed to how it would be with the lion, where we simply can NOT understand there (it is a fact, not a choice). — Antony Nickles
The use of this statement is as a fact, to be contrasted with the conviction, or the strangeness of traditions... But, yes, this is simply meant to be an uncontested fact, used for comparison. — Antony Nickles
I think you need to provide more support for this reading. Why couldn't it be another example of "the convincing expression of a conviction"? Or something else? — Luke
Wittgenstein isn't the easiest philosopher to get a handle on and "if a lion could talk" is one of his more enigmatic statements. — Luke
I'm also curious about the other parts of your discussion title re: qualia and forms of life which you said little about in your OP. — Luke
labeling Witt’s sentences as “Thesis” is not exactly accurate. — Antony Nickles
The “unperceived physical proceedings” are the writing and the jig-saw puzzles, etc.—which are hidden in the sense of, away from view. — Antony Nickles
Also, do you think Wittgenstein uses the terms "know" and "understand" synonymously? — Luke
I meant it as indicating the opening statement as affirmation, in accordance with continental dialectical reasoning, re: German idealists in general. The antithesis, then, follows as subjecting the opening to negation, or just some sort of modification.... Still, I could have used point/counterpoint, so...... — Mmw
I just went off on a rant over the gross dissimilarities between emperical invisibility and rational invisibility, and how silly it is to juxtaposition one against the other. — Mmw
He's trying to get the reader to see from a different viewpoint. — Antony Nickles
I suppose that [getting the reader to see from a different viewpoint] might work for one who hasn’t an entrenched viewpoint already. It may also work, even for him, if OLP made enough sense to displace it. — Mww
I’d be pleased to see how you correlate reasoning to grammar, from your “...one of the main points of Ordinary Language Philosophy would be there are different kinds of reasoning ("grammar")....” — Mww
I’d be interested in what you have to say about Kantian “grammar” with his categories. — Mww
"I cannot know what is going on in him"
"We could not understand a lion if it talked."
The first is a refusal, the second is an impossibility. — Antony Nickles
Is there (do you have) another way (attempt) to account for all of this evidence? — Antony Nickles
I will also say that it is illustrative of Witt's method of looking at the use of language — Antony Nickles
If you want to be able to fix words or speech to something inside the brain (ideas, thoughts, mental occurrences; what has been termed 'qualia') then hanging onto that makes it hard to shift to seeing the motivation for that, which Witt is pointing out. — Antony Nickles
So some, out of the same desire, have latched onto his term of Forms of Life, as a communal agreement, or a type of rule, that ensures the meaning of words. — Antony Nickles
Also, do you think Wittgenstein uses the terms "know" and "understand" synonymously?
— Luke
After looking around in the book, I would say, sometimes its close, but not here. As with most words, the 'grammar' of the word allows for many senses (and for new ones). Knows, as: has knowledge; as: acknowledges; as: familiar with; as: know how to continue, etc. Understands, as: understands how to (do a procedure); as: commiserates with (a person); as: can follow (what someone is saying, their point), etc. — Antony Nickles
"I cannot know what is going on in him"
"We could not understand a lion if it talked."
The first is a refusal, the second is an impossibility.
— Antony Nickles
I'm not sure what you mean by an impossibility. Is it impossible that lions can talk? — Luke
Wittgenstein is getting us to imagine that a lion could talk.... It's a conditional statement and hardly a self-evident fact. — Luke
What I should have said is Witt is using its impossibility; as I did say, using it as a fact — Antony Nickles
My argument is that this is not being used as a conditional statement — Antony Nickles
If he is asking us to imagine something, what sense do the sentences around it make? — Antony Nickles
If you want to be able to fix words or speech to something inside the brain (ideas, thoughts, mental occurrences; what has been termed 'qualia') then hanging onto that makes it hard to shift to seeing the motivation for that, which Witt is pointing out.
— Antony Nickles
Where does he talk about "fixing words or speech to something inside the brain"? I don't find the relationship between mind and body to be an immediately apparent goal of his investigations. — Luke
So some, out of the same desire, have latched onto his term of Forms of Life, as a communal agreement, or a type of rule, that ensures the meaning of words.
— Antony Nickles
It sounds as though you take this to be a misunderstanding of Forms of Life. If so, what do you understand "Forms of Life" to mean or to be about? — Luke
If these terms [knowledge and understanding] are not synonymous, then doesn't this create a problem for your reading of:
"I cannot know what is going on in him"; and
"We could not understand a lion if it talked"?
Doesn't it loosen the connection you are wanting to draw between these? — Luke
What I should have said is Witt is using its impossibility; as I did say, using it as a fact
— Antony Nickles
On your reading, he's using the impossibility as a fact. Okay. — Luke
My argument is that this is not being used as a conditional statement
— Antony Nickles
How can it be otherwise? Lions can't talk. — Luke
If a lion could talk, we could not understand him." Ludwig Wittgenstein, — Antony Nickles
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