I know you're not creativesoul but was that an example? (:razz:)Surely this will be resolved before 100 pages. — Marchesk
All you have to do is use some sounds of your choice to refer to your belief. Does it matter that no one else understands the sounds?Not All Belief Can Be Put Into Statement Form — Antony Nickles
Can you give us an example? — Coben
He could indicate phenomena that lead him to believe there is a belief involved and which cannot be put into words. He doesn't have to say what the belief is. IOW he can justify his position through a specific without putting into words. Otherwise, it seems to me, we have nothing to go on.If creative could give an example then it wouldn't be an example of a belief that can't be put into statement form, rather it would be an example of a belief put in statement form. — Harry Hindu
Well, not for me. I think anything I consider as something an animal believes can be put into a statement. They don't do that, but that's another story. I don't believe all of my beliefs, for example, have been put into statements. But a belief is an idea about how things are/work/cause/will be/have been. Those can all be put into words.The first question should be, "What is a belief?" If you can show that animals and pre-language babies (or adults as in the case of Idelfonso - The Man Without Words) have beliefs, then is that not enough to show that there are beliefs that cannot be put into statements? — Harry Hindu
but I would think we'd have to investigate what "statement form" is, and what we are talking about when we say we "believe". — Antony Nickles
↪Philosophim
Proof of another creature's belief?
:brow:
What would count as proof of that for you? — creativesoul
There is an actual difference between a belief and a report/account thereof. Do not conflate the two. We put our reports of another's belief into statement form, we do not put another's belief into statement form. Only they can do that, if they're capable of expressing their belief with language. — creativesoul
I'm not quite sure that I'm getting you here.Well, not for me. I think anything I consider as something an animal believes can be put into a statement. They don't do that, but that's another story. I don't believe all of my beliefs, for example, have been put into statements. But a belief is an idea about how things are/work/cause/will be/have been. Those can all be put into words.
When drinking water at the watering hole it is good to be ready to run. Other places and positions are safer.
To me anything I would attribute as a belief to an animal could be formulated in language. Otherwise I would not call it a belief. Like the way the skin might pulsate if you poked a baboons skin. I wouldn't call that a belief, I'd call that a response.
Something leads him to believe 'those phenomena indicate a belief'. He can tell me the phenomena. I would likely then show how it could be put into a statement. Not a statement describing the phenomena, but a statement of the underlying belief. — Coben
I think animals have beliefs, babies too.I'm not quite sure that I'm getting you here.
Words and statements are just visual scribbles and audible sounds. Writing or speaking are actions. So why would it be so difficult to acknowledge that animals and babies have beliefs if they can make noises with their mouths, or perform actions? — Harry Hindu
By their behavior, just as I do with animals. And yes, through non-verbal communication also, which is a subset of behavior. Of course with animals we are dealing with a serious cross-'cultural' divide, so I might make errors. But with mammals say, I share a lot in common with them. So, I do think I can work out many of their beliefs and put those in statements.If you hear a person speaking a different language that you don't know, how do you know that they are using words or just making noises? How would you know that they have beliefs? — Harry Hindu
Having a belief and being able to symbolize it with scribbles and sounds are two separate things. We can symbolize anything, not just beliefs, so asking whether or not we can symbolize beliefs isn't a very interesting question. Non-language users have beliefs that they cannot put into statement form, but language users can put beliefs, as well as facts (like the fact that others have beliefs), into statement form. This just means that those that have established a symbol system can use that system to symbolize other events and processes. A symbol system can be expanded to represent new events and processes. So languages can be adapted to represent virtually anything - beliefs or otherwise.By their behavior, just as I do with animals. And yes, through non-verbal communication also, which is a subset of behavior. Of course with animals we are dealing with a serious cross-'cultural' divide, so I might make errors. But with mammals say, I share a lot in common with them. So, I do think I can work out many of their beliefs and put those in statements.
And since I was responding to someone who it seemed was saying 'they have beliefs that cannot be put into statements' they seem to recognize beliefs in animals, but have deciding that these beliefs they recognize, some of them, cannot be put into statements. Well, I don't think that makes any sense. If they recognized a belief in an animal, then it can be put into words. The animal may not, but they are, without seeming to acknowledge it, now capable of it. — Coben
1) if I look at the thread title it seems like the question of the thread 2) it may not be interesting to you, but I find it interesting that there isn't agreement on the issue.Having a belief and being able to symbolize it with scribbles and sounds are two separate things. We can symbolize anything, not just beliefs, so asking whether or not we can symbolize beliefs isn't a very interesting question. — Harry Hindu
Agreed.Non-language users have beliefs that they cannot put into statement form, but language users can put beliefs, as well as facts (like the fact that others have beliefs), into statement form. — Harry Hindu
I tend to agree, but some things are much harder to put into words than others. Like 'the meaning of a dream'. One can certainly get a description of a dream and then produce a representation of what one thinks is the meaning. But given the complexity of dreams the amount of possible interpretations the possibility that there are contradictions in the dream (which can be hard to put into grammatically correct sentences or even use words that have to do with waking life), I think it makes it harder to make a clear statement that the meaning of a dream can be put into words.A symbol system can be expanded to represent new events and processes. So languages can be adapted to represent virtually anything - beliefs or otherwise. — Harry Hindu
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