Can you give us an example?

Surely this will be resolved before 100 pages.

Surely this will be resolved before 100 pages. — Marchesk

I know you're not creativesoul but was that an example? (:razz:)

I know you're not creativesoul but was that an example? (:razz:) — Coben

I have an inner ineffable confidence which cannot be expressed properly in words that if Banno commits to this thread, it will get close to 100.

How's that?

like a koan

I have an inner ineffable confidence which cannot be expressed properly in words that if Banno commits to this thread, it will get close to 100. — Marchesk

Ah, but you did express it in words...

I thought he lied.

Sorry is this a debate proposal or am I locking this thread?

Not sure. Waiting for @creativesoul to decide on the topic... I'm presuming that there is a structure such that only Creative and I will be able to post?

To have a belief is to treat a statement as true. In other words, for a belief to exist, there must be a statement. No statement, no belief.

Yes, I was wondering how a belief could exist without a statement, because how else could it be articulated or said to exist if it is not stated. It would be like a big cloud or void of unknowing if not articulated or formulated.

The OP is meant as a debate proposal, specifically towards . Although, we've yet to have hammered out a few details. That ought be done in the other proposal thread, because it seems that that's where we're proceeding.

Not properly

A passive-aggressive response. Don't explain yourself.

My passive-aggression? or what it is about "inner ineffable confidence" that to express it properly includes something other than words? (actual confidence?)

My passive-aggression? — Antony Nickles

Yep.

"Not All Belief Can Be Put Into Statement Form"

Not sure if I'm just the schlub who's taking the bait on a gag, but I would think we'd have to investigate what "statement form" is, and what we are talking about when we say we "believe".

Obviously "putting something into statement form" is not meant simply as opposed to: not stating it, as in, not expressing it in words; though belief can be simply: not doubt. It could also be said to be an outlook, a perspective, an "attitude" Wittgenstein says (p. 152). And, say we believe that the Other is in pain. Do we state that?--"I believe you are in pain"--or do we move to help them, call 911, etc. (Of course we CAN say it, as above, but it is not in the "form" of a statement, to express or claim anything; it is to acknowledge the Other--in this case, possibly, to reassure them that you are with them, that you accept that they are not lying, etc.

I imagine we are actually, however, tied up somehow in the philosophical problem that statements (their "form") are either true or false, and everything else is belief--or, however that one is better explained--or some tangent thereof. (This begs the question: how do we change a worded expression from a "belief" (form?) to "put" it into "statement form"?)

we might have to work backwards. There are numerous examples in Wittgenstein, J.L. Austin, and Cavell, of statements being subject to other, say, "truth-value" standards than true-falsity (other "forms"?). To say "I'm sorry", is to state something, but then what is the form? You can call this a "belief"--to consign everything not certain, universal, or true/false to the rubbish bin--but do we really say that we "believe" we are sorry? Some might say it is the expression of a belief (or knowledge) of something inside of me--my sorry-ness? But "I'm sorry" is a statement in the form (sense) of an apology. And an apology can be done correctly, or incorrectly--it can avoid any acknowledgement of wrong-doing (one of the criteria of doing an apology correctly). It can be sincere or insincere. Now, if I "believe" you; can I "state" that? Sure. Can I call your apology true? false? And again, what would it be a 'statement' of? My (internal state of?) belief?

Not All Belief Can Be Put Into Statement Form — Antony Nickles

All you have to do is use some sounds of your choice to refer to your belief. Does it matter that no one else understands the sounds?

If meaning were use, then wouldn't you need to be able to observe someone's belief to know how to use those words?

Can you give us an example? — Coben

If creative could give an example then it wouldn't be an example of a belief that can't be put into statement form, rather it would be an example of a belief put in statement form.

The first question should be, "What is a belief?" If you can show that animals and pre-language babies (or adults as in the case of Idelfonso - The Man Without Words) have beliefs, then is that not enough to show that there are beliefs that cannot be put into statements? What if there are words to refer to the belief, but the person doesn't know the words - does that mean that they don't have the belief until they know the words to refer to it?

If creative could give an example then it wouldn't be an example of a belief that can't be put into statement form, rather it would be an example of a belief put in statement form. — Harry Hindu

He could indicate phenomena that lead him to believe there is a belief involved and which cannot be put into words. He doesn't have to say what the belief is. IOW he can justify his position through a specific without putting into words. Otherwise, it seems to me, we have nothing to go on.

The first question should be, "What is a belief?" If you can show that animals and pre-language babies (or adults as in the case of Idelfonso - The Man Without Words) have beliefs, then is that not enough to show that there are beliefs that cannot be put into statements? — Harry Hindu

Well, not for me. I think anything I consider as something an animal believes can be put into a statement. They don't do that, but that's another story. I don't believe all of my beliefs, for example, have been put into statements. But a belief is an idea about how things are/work/cause/will be/have been. Those can all be put into words.

When drinking water at the watering hole it is good to be ready to run. Other places and positions are safer.

To me anything I would attribute as a belief to an animal could be formulated in language. Otherwise I would not call it a belief. Like the way the skin might pulsate if you poked a baboons skin. I wouldn't call that a belief, I'd call that a response.

Something leads him to believe 'those phenomena indicate a belief'. He can tell me the phenomena. I would likely then show how it could be put into a statement. Not a statement describing the phenomena, but a statement of the underlying belief.

There is an actual difference between a belief and a report/account thereof. Do not conflate the two. We put our reports of another's belief into statement form, we do not put another's belief into statement form. Only they can do that, if they're capable of expressing their belief with language.

That's the jist of it.

but I would think we'd have to investigate what "statement form" is, and what we are talking about when we say we "believe". — Antony Nickles

Amen. Always. Even while swimming. Such creates the daylight that keeps the @StreetlightXs off, they're being not needed.

You have to give an example CreativeSoul. What belief cannot be put into a statement? Its like saying, "There is an undetectable unicorn". You must give proof of its existence. If you can't, then we're not talking about anything real.

Proof of another creature's belief?

:brow:

What would count as proof of that for you?

↪Philosophim

Proof of another creature's belief?

:brow:

What would count as proof of that for you? — creativesoul

What you must prove is that another creatures belief cannot be put into a statement. One way to prove this is to attempt to genuinely put it into a statement, then show how that forms a contradiction.

There is an actual difference between a belief and a report/account thereof. Do not conflate the two. We put our reports of another's belief into statement form, we do not put another's belief into statement form. Only they can do that, if they're capable of expressing their belief with language. — creativesoul

And this is to only use a particular ("philosophical") sense of the concept of belief, that is specific but absent any ordinary context, which leads to a framework (picture Wittgenstein would say) that there is something internal (unspoken or hidden) which may or may not be capable of expression, but especially in language. (As I pointed out above, there are other senses of belief that don't have to do with language, even expressions of belief). This is the imagination of thought as a mental process or image or activity which is either constantly happening or, when it does, is something private or internal to me--undetectable by the Other unless reported. Cavell identifies this as a secret, but that does not account for the space (or not) between this particular sense of belief and language. To this I can only say, from Wittgenstein, that this sense of belief is necessitated (created?) to satisfy a purpose. Cavell would explain this as either the desire to be (or fear of being) unreflectively entirely expressed in every report, i.e., that there is no "belief" without language, that our account is equal to our belief. Or the desire to remain unknowable--that we maintain something of ourself (belief) beyond language so that we can, say, slide out of our accounts because they do not entirely report something hidden in us.

Well, not for me. I think anything I consider as something an animal believes can be put into a statement. They don't do that, but that's another story. I don't believe all of my beliefs, for example, have been put into statements. But a belief is an idea about how things are/work/cause/will be/have been. Those can all be put into words.

When drinking water at the watering hole it is good to be ready to run. Other places and positions are safer.

To me anything I would attribute as a belief to an animal could be formulated in language. Otherwise I would not call it a belief. Like the way the skin might pulsate if you poked a baboons skin. I wouldn't call that a belief, I'd call that a response.

Something leads him to believe 'those phenomena indicate a belief'. He can tell me the phenomena. I would likely then show how it could be put into a statement. Not a statement describing the phenomena, but a statement of the underlying belief. — Coben

I'm not quite sure that I'm getting you here.

Words and statements are just visual scribbles and audible sounds. Writing or speaking are actions. So why would it be so difficult to acknowledge that animals and babies have beliefs if they can make noises with their mouths, or perform actions?

Being that words are just visuals and audibles, then any visual or audible could be made into a word. The symbols that are used to communicate can be arbitrary, and even unintentional. A dog barking or wagging it's tail communicates something. What that may be - only other dogs may know, and maybe some humans if they have been around dogs long enough. I find it difficult to believe that only particular human made visuals and sounds are indicators of possessing beliefs.

If you hear a person speaking a different language that you don't know, how do you know that they are using words or just making noises? How would you know that they have beliefs?

I'm not quite sure that I'm getting you here.

Words and statements are just visual scribbles and audible sounds. Writing or speaking are actions. So why would it be so difficult to acknowledge that animals and babies have beliefs if they can make noises with their mouths, or perform actions? — Harry Hindu

I think animals have beliefs, babies too.

If you hear a person speaking a different language that you don't know, how do you know that they are using words or just making noises? How would you know that they have beliefs? — Harry Hindu

By their behavior, just as I do with animals. And yes, through non-verbal communication also, which is a subset of behavior. Of course with animals we are dealing with a serious cross-'cultural' divide, so I might make errors. But with mammals say, I share a lot in common with them. So, I do think I can work out many of their beliefs and put those in statements.

And since I was responding to someone who it seemed was saying 'they have beliefs that cannot be put into statements' they seem to recognize beliefs in animals, but have deciding that these beliefs they recognize, some of them, cannot be put into statements. Well, I don't think that makes any sense. If they recognized a belief in an animal, then it can be put into words. The animal may not, but they are, without seeming to acknowledge it, now capable of it.

By their behavior, just as I do with animals. And yes, through non-verbal communication also, which is a subset of behavior. Of course with animals we are dealing with a serious cross-'cultural' divide, so I might make errors. But with mammals say, I share a lot in common with them. So, I do think I can work out many of their beliefs and put those in statements.

And since I was responding to someone who it seemed was saying 'they have beliefs that cannot be put into statements' they seem to recognize beliefs in animals, but have deciding that these beliefs they recognize, some of them, cannot be put into statements. Well, I don't think that makes any sense. If they recognized a belief in an animal, then it can be put into words. The animal may not, but they are, without seeming to acknowledge it, now capable of it. — Coben

Having a belief and being able to symbolize it with scribbles and sounds are two separate things. We can symbolize anything, not just beliefs, so asking whether or not we can symbolize beliefs isn't a very interesting question. Non-language users have beliefs that they cannot put into statement form, but language users can put beliefs, as well as facts (like the fact that others have beliefs), into statement form. This just means that those that have established a symbol system can use that system to symbolize other events and processes. A symbol system can be expanded to represent new events and processes. So languages can be adapted to represent virtually anything - beliefs or otherwise.

Having a belief and being able to symbolize it with scribbles and sounds are two separate things. We can symbolize anything, not just beliefs, so asking whether or not we can symbolize beliefs isn't a very interesting question. — Harry Hindu

1) if I look at the thread title it seems like the question of the thread 2) it may not be interesting to you, but I find it interesting that there isn't agreement on the issue.

Non-language users have beliefs that they cannot put into statement form, but language users can put beliefs, as well as facts (like the fact that others have beliefs), into statement form. — Harry Hindu

Agreed.

A symbol system can be expanded to represent new events and processes. So languages can be adapted to represent virtually anything - beliefs or otherwise. — Harry Hindu

I tend to agree, but some things are much harder to put into words than others. Like 'the meaning of a dream'. One can certainly get a description of a dream and then produce a representation of what one thinks is the meaning. But given the complexity of dreams the amount of possible interpretations the possibility that there are contradictions in the dream (which can be hard to put into grammatically correct sentences or even use words that have to do with waking life), I think it makes it harder to make a clear statement that the meaning of a dream can be put into words.

Now certainly with beliefs attributed to animals, we can make mistakes or project. It's not that I see this as infallible AT ALL. But where I would assign a belief would be with clear repeated behavior. An wildebeast looking around carefully before drinking water at a water hole is quite different from a dream image of my father as a little boy telling me to be careful about the soup while we are in the tax office and suddenly I am him in a very different mood and the tax office turns out to be a brothel. It might be more useful to not seek to represent the dream in squiggles but to act it out or associate (in words) rather than to represent the meaning in sentences , as in an essay that says THE meaning.

But hey, I thought the topic was could beliefs be put into statement form (and I assume this meant that this would include doing this well or accurately) so that's what I am weighing in on. Even if it isn't as interesting as what you want us to focus on. I am open to that also.