There is the transformation of the foundations of normative, intersubjective argumentation, particularly in the realms of identity politics and online discourse. In this emerging framework, factual accuracy and logical coherence are increasingly overshadowed by emotional expressions of identity and marginalization, which come to serve as autonomous validations of truth and moral authority. — Number2018
I think that classical liberalism is largely defined by its anthropology, so that any system with an appropriate role for thymos and logos probably becomes something quite different. However, this doesn't mean it jettisons the things Fukuyama thinks are most valuable about liberalism, namely:
1. Accountable government (normally through some form of elections)
2. A strong, independent, professional civil society
3. A centralized state monopoly on force
4. Rule of law and property rights
So, whether you'd want to call a reform based on a "thick" anthropology "liberalism" or not seems besides the main point to me. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Your OP covers a slew of issues and connects them in a particular way. It begins with Doyle’s critique of wokism, and then lays out a Foucaultian analysis of wokism, from which vantage Doyle’s own thinking is itself a symptom of wokist power relations. This seems to drive more from Deleuze than Focault, since Deleuze insisted that only revolutionary change could break one free from the hegemony of discursive regimes, such as Capitalism. Foucault, on the other hand, was more open to compromise with the dominant cultural , since unlike Deleuze he didn’t see regimes like capitalism as monolithic entities but as already slowly transforming themselves from within their own power dynamics. This allowed him to accept a critique of Doyle from a wokist vantage that was itself open to its own transformation through its own dynamics of power. — Joshs
Your position likely aligns closely with Slavoj Žižek’s perspective on wokeness. Žižek argues that wokeness operates as a form of ideological displacement: it presents itself as a libertarian or emancipatory movement, but in reality, serves as a mechanism through which neoliberal capitalism maintains the appearance of moral progressivism—while evading any real confrontation with deeper structural or economic injustices. As he puts it, “Wokeness is a form of moralization that leaves intact the system of exploitation.”My post-Marxist political stance is Old Left, or prioritizing the economic justice movement (e.g. democratizing workplaces, management & ownership) over social justice-identity politics aka "woke" policies such that the latter are historically situated, or grounded, by the former. Outside or in lieu of the movement – especially during the last half-century of Thatcher-Reagan neoliberal globalization – "wokeness" (like p0m0 discourse) has become reactionary to the degree it has failed to propose coherent alternatives to and practical resistance against populist support for rightwing, illiberal regimes. — 180 Proof
rejects the Kuhnian implication of critical theoretic approaches to objective truth — Joshs
languaged concepts hook up to objective truths which transcend cultural dynamics — Joshs
I suggest that Doyle’s rejection of this crucial philosophical underpinning of wokism motivates his rejection of it. — Joshs
he would still find it wanting in comparison with his non-relativistic liberalism — Joshs
But in a moral moment there is no authority to claim what is right, thus the importance of understanding the issue from the inside, on another's terms. To make the "strongest" case for them, which is not to say the one we ourselves would make (based on our standards), but respecting that they might have legitimate interests that we don't yet know. Thus a moral discussion is putting ourselves in the place of the other; digging deep to understand (not assume) what they value and want, and not dismissing them out of hand (as we too often do in philosophy, looking first to refute). — Antony Nickles
contemporary moral discourse has undergone a dramatic transformation. — Number2018
The imperative to understand others ‘from the inside’ and to take their experience seriously on their own terms often becomes an impossible undertaking. — Number2018
How can one distinguish between authentic expressions of suffering and their strategic imitation? We are often caught between the necessity of listening and the danger of being manipulated. — Number2018
In the context of this thread, wokeness often transforms vulnerability into a source of ultimate moral authority. — Number2018
The possibility we may not ultimately agree or understand the other’s interests is not a reason to assume irrationality or disingenuousness. Sometimes attributing a serious person to some things that are said and done takes more imagination and generosity than you may receive. We may have to set aside our feelings, our desire to react, our inability to understand instantly, in order to not jump to the first conclusion, — Antony Nickles
The "metaphysics of power" normally tends to dissolve the subject possessing logos, and to make logos merely an illusion of power, or nothing but power itself. However, I don't think the foundations of this movement are actually philosophically sound, and even if they were, their logical conclusion will be fascism (what we are indeed seeing), not some sort of radically left egalitarianism. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Perhaps. If true though, I can't say I'm upset, as woke is a poison pill for ideology. Hopefully if the GoP doubles down on identity politics, this will swing us back to the middle again as they fracture their growing coalition.
The similarities lie more in the focus on identity, grievance, narratives of power, skepticism of institutions (instruments of power), and as Doyle puts it, "admission of spectral evidence," (i.e., personal feelings of grievance as indicative of moral wrong). There is also a similar distrust of scientific, journalistic, academic, etc. institutions as mere instruments of power, a sort of epistemology of power to go along with the metaphysics of power. The "nu-right" is a heavily aesthetic movement, drawing a lot from ancient epics and art, and so you also have an "aesthetics of power." The preference for classical art styles for instance, is not mere reactionary preference for the old, but obviously because these are taken to by symbols of imperial power and warrior spirit. — Count Timothy von Icarus
What is your take on this video about contemporary fascism? It highlights the stance of critical intellectuals against authoritarian regimes that are increasingly targeting academic freedom. They are completely genuine while expressing their concerns. The video constructs a stark us vs. them narrative. In fact, its moral binary and emotional framing reflect characteristics often associated with “woke culture”: strong normative certainty, oversimplification, moral urgency, and an appeal to identity and belonging. This resemblance suggests that the crisis revealed by wokeness is not merely cultural or political. Also, it reveals a deeper epistemic, ethical, and moral rupture — Number2018
In the case of wokeness, the issue is not one of disagreement or misunderstanding. Rather, it lies in the complete blurring of boundaries between the authenticity of identity performance and the sincerity of moral expression — Number2018
In Australia, the only people who use the term 'woke' are Murdoch journalists and oddly discordant right-wingers, from what I’ve seen. It doesn't seem to have captured people’s imagination as widely. — Tom Storm
I am no fan of wokeness either but I think there are more careful considerations and critiques of it from the likes of Sam Harris to name one, or Zizek, from the little I watched of the latter, but I doubt this guy will fall into that category. I suspect it will just be the usual right-wing dog whistles of cultural marxism and such — unimportant
The problem with this is that basically "woke" and "Wokism" is defined by those who reject the whole thing. It already is a critique. Many of those then accused of being "woke" never have thought to be "woke" and don't understand what is meant by it. Hence starting to look at the underpinnings is a bit difficult.To effectively critique wokism you have to understand its philosophical underpinnings. — Joshs
Btw, you never responded to my question to you: — Joshs
Your OP covers a slew of issues and connects them in a particular way. It begins with Doyle’s critique of wokism, and then lays out a Foucaultian analysis of wokism, from which vantage Doyle’s own thinking is itself a symptom of wokist power relations. This seems to drive more from Deleuze than Focault, since Deleuze insisted that only revolutionary change could break one free from the hegemony of discursive regimes, such as Capitalism. Foucault, on the other hand, was more open to compromise with the dominant cultural , since unlike Deleuze he didn’t see regimes like capitalism as monolithic entities but as already slowly transforming themselves from within their own power dynamics. This allowed him to accept a critique of Doyle from a wokist vantage that was itself open to its own transformation through its own dynamics of power.
— Joshs
Indeed, I have attempted to analyze wokeness through the lens of Deleuze and Foucault’s theories of power. Contrary to your point, however, I do not believe that I have departed from their intellectual projects. On the contrary, I see my approach as the beginning of a modified Deleuzian–Foucauldian framework for thinking about wokeness.
But I still do not know whether this undertaking is even possible in principle. Deleuze and Foucault’s approaches are not entirely compatible, and our current digital reality tends to resist forms of theoretical inquiry altogether. Both thinkers emphasize the omnipresent, diffuse, and immanent nature of contemporary power—power that resists representation and totalizing frameworks. This implies that assuming a neutral, detached position that claims to be outside the field of power in order to conduct objective or universal researchis likely a mistake. As Foucault shows, and Deleuze echoes, the very act of representing pre-given realities risks reproducing the territorialities one seeks to critique.Where Deleuze diverges from Foucault is in his conception of resistance. For Deleuze, resistance lies in following a line of flight—creating a new reality that, in the moment of its emergence, escapes the capture of existing power structures. As Ray Brassier puts it:
“So long as practice is subordinated to representation, it can only more or less adequately trace a pre-existing reality, according to extant criteria of success or failure. But machinic pragmatics is not geared towards representation; it is an experimental practice oriented towards bringing something new into existence—something that does not pre-exist its process of production. It decouples performance from competence. It does not engage in a utilitarian tracing of the real; it generates a constructive mapping (and as we shall see, a diagramming) of the real: ‘What distinguishes the map from the tracing is that it is entirely oriented toward an experimentation in contact with the real. The map does not reproduce an unconscious closed in upon itself; it constructs the unconscious.’”
This outline of machinic pragmatics is especially relevant to the project of interrogating wokeness. Wokeness can be understood as a desiring-machine. Without mediation, conditioned by power, it prompts and modulates our human emotions: shame, guilt, pride, vulnerability, and anger. So, the Deleuzian project of creating lines of flight becomes a philosophical undertaking to produce autonomous, intensive machines that map reality rather than trace it. These machines are not about representing the already-given, but about experimentation that escape the dominant power formations.To enact a line of flight, a philosophical machine must activate and intensify its own internal dynamics, rather than remain entangled in the representational circuits of identity. This means breaking with the fixed, lived identity produced by the wokeness desiring-machine, which operates through affective capture and the reinforcement of socially legible forms of subjectivity.
Whereas the wokeness machine induces emotions like shame, guilt, and vulnerability to generate moral authority and political legitimacy, the philosophical machine must resist this affective economy by refusing to be coded within it. Instead, it amplifies its own intensity and its capacity to think and feel. In this sense, the line of flight is an experimental process that exceeds the coordinates of recognition and representation. It constructs an autonomous plane of consistency where thought is no longer mediated by identity, morality, or social function, but engages directly with the real. — Number2018
There is the transformation of the foundations of normative, intersubjective argumentation, particularly in the realms of identity politics and online discourse. In this emerging framework, factual accuracy and logical coherence are increasingly overshadowed by emotional expressions of identity and marginalization, which come to serve as autonomous validations of truth and moral authority.
— Number2018
Are you placing ‘factual accuracy’ on one side of a divide and ‘emotional expression’ on the other side in order to deconstruct and overturn this metaphysical dualism, as Nietzsche, Focault, Deleuze, Heidegger and Derrida have? Or do you seriously want to justify such a reason-privileging split? Or is ‘emotional expression’ as Deleuzian desire, Heideggerian attunement and Foucaultian power the very pre-condition of factuality? — Joshs
↪Joshs
Timothy Snyder and Jason Stanley appear in the video. They are completely genuine in expressing not just their concerns about fascism, but also about wokism.
— Joshs
But what is your assessment of the academic content of this video—especially considering that Snyder is a leading scholar on fascism and Nazi Germany? — Number2018
I would in no way describe the analyses of Heidegger, Deleuze or Derrida as ‘epistemic’ as opposed to affective. As I said before, this implies a split between knowledge and feeling that none of these authors accept. Furthermore, epistemology derives from the platonic metaphysical traditions they critique. Can you locate any direct quotes from these authors supporting the distinction you’re trying to make? — Joshs
You mentioned Ray Brassier. Are you getting this from him? — Joshs
But what is your assessment of the academic content of this video—especially considering that Snyder is a leading scholar on fascism and Nazi Germany?Timothy Snyder and Jason Stanley appear in the video. They are completely genuine in expressing not just their concerns about fascism, but also about wokism. — Joshs
I would say in the UK the woke term has been extremely and enthusiastically taken up by right wingers. — unimportant
instead, I attempt to diagnose a shift in discursive practices, particularly in the domains of identity politics and online activism, where affective expressions of marginalization have begun to function as sufficient sources of epistemic and moral authority. — Number2018
Thus, emotional experience and perceived marginality are not retained within rigorous ontological framing. Instead, they assert themselves as affective self-reference of truth and moral authority, becoming resistant to questioning, nuance, or deliberate reflection. — Number2018
In the case of wokeness, the issue is not one of disagreement or misunderstanding. Rather, it lies in the complete blurring of boundaries between the authenticity of identity performance and the sincerity of moral expression — Number2018
instead, I attempt to diagnose a shift in discursive practices, particularly in the domains of identity politics and online activism, where affective expressions of marginalization have begun to function as sufficient sources of epistemic and moral authority.
— Number2018
Fancy wording but I think this is certainly a widely held belief - perhaps that some people weaponise their lived experience. Can you provide a specific example you are thinking of here - one with broad repercussions? — Tom Storm
Whereas the wokeness machine induces emotions like shame, guilt, and vulnerability to generate moral authority and political legitimacy, the philosophical machine must resist this affective economy by refusing to be coded within it. Instead, it amplifies its own intensity and its capacity to think and feel. In this sense, the line of flight is an experimental process that exceeds the coordinates of recognition and representation. It constructs an autonomous plane of consistency where thought is no longer mediated by identity, morality, or social function, but engages directly with the real. — Number2018
Critics argue that emotional discomfort has become a trigger for restricting speech, displacing debate with moral claims based solely on feeling hurt or offended. — Number2018
Critics argue that emotional discomfort has become a trigger for restricting speech, displacing debate with moral claims based solely on feeling hurt or offended — Number2018
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